Johnson or Mercury

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I surfed around on the web a bit, and could not find much in the way of historical sales figures/market shares of the various outboard motor makers. Mostly stuff like this:
Dow Jones News Service. 22 Dec. 2003.
Brunswick has a 40% share of the U.S. outboard engine market and a 70% share of the inboard stern-drive market.

Does anyone have any links to "real" data?

 

[cougar1985]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I surfed around on the web a bit, and could not find much in the way of historical sales figures/market shares of the various outboard motor makers. Mostly stuff like this:
Dow Jones News Service. 22 Dec. 2003.
Brunswick has a 40% share of the U.S. outboard engine market and a 70% share of the inboard stern-drive market.

Does anyone have any links to "real" data?

i havnt seen any real data either ,must be out there some wheres.i was and maybe still am a very big merc fan (old)but the simple fact around where i live is i cant find any old mercs to collect or play with they are just not around any more.old omc,s outnumber merc by a staggering amount around here .would like nothing better than to get a old six banger to play with as long as it wasnt a dockbuster and hopefully under 80hp if made ?i had a 1964 65 hp 4 banger that was great and a 1961? 45/40? 4 banger that was and still is a fantastic runner (sold it).

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I was going to leave this alone, because I didn't want to stir up controversy, but since the issues have been raised by others, I'll offer comment.

I think the statement about Mercruiser outselling OMC sterndrives is probably accurate. That said, I highly doubt that Merc outboards outsold OMCs on a nationwide basis, nevermind worldwide basis. What I do think is true, is that Mercs were very popular in certain areas.

As for OMCs demise, it was not related to either electric shift models or FICHT engines, which I agree are crappy motors. OMC owned about 20 subsidiary companies at one time. They included both boating related companies and those that were not, such as Cushman golf carts. What did the company in, was bad business decisions related to the overall company, not a single unit of it.


PS: While I have known for some time that the FICHT engines were not the source of OMC's downfall, I just found some interesting info. As it turns out, they actually boosted sales for OMC significantly. Despite this, there were other business issues that pushed the company into bankruptcy.

Another interesting fact that I ran across in the process of surfing financial info, is that Mercury had a well known policy of labeling its engines with less hp than they actually produced. They did this for the specific purpose of making it appear as though Mercury engines delivered more "power" than their competitors.



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[ThumbPkr]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I don't think that Mercury "mislabeled" their engines in the old days but they used the "sae" formula to rate them and OMC at least and likely others used the "obc" formula which resulted in a mismatch in actual performance per horsepower.I have an old Mark 20 and a Mark 25 which were 16 and 18 hp respectively and they would easily run with the OMC 25hp engines of their day.Ron G

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Nope, the information indicated that they intentionally mislabled them. Apparently, this was done at the insistence of Carl Keikhaefer. He was known to be a bit of an extreme person and wanted this done purely for competitive reasons. Kiekhaefer retired from the company (Brunswick by then) in 1969, so its not certain for how long afterwards this was the case. I would guess that it didn't stop right away, though.

He also used to spy on his competitors and was so obsessed with employees not goofing off, that he once paid two week severence to a truck driver who didn't even work for the company. It seems that Kiekhaefer saw the driver sitting around waiting for his truck to be offloaded and scolded him for not working, because he didn't know that the guy was not one of his own employees. According to the article that I read, Kiekhaefer "fired him" and immediately paid him severence.

On the flip side, he was one of the pioneers of the outboard industry and invented a lot of other things as well. I guess you could say that he was one of those eccentric characters, who succeeded through that personal attribute, plus a brilliant mind and an obsession for work.



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[jbjennings]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I think they knowingly put hp labels on those older mercs lower than actual hp for whatever reason, particularly in the 40's and 50's. I've never seen a merc that wasn't a more powerful engine than rated, other than my crappy '73 3-cylinder 65hp mercury. But unlike some of my mercs, my 65hp actually cranks up easily even when cold.
I also think that OMR may be slightly incorrect if he thinks there are more older mercs in RUNNING condition than OMC.

I suspect that to be because:
1. OMC's ignitions in the 50's, 60's, and 70's are all very, very easy to work on and cheap to fix, vs. the merc ignitions changed a lot and had expensive components like triggers and switch boxes (notorious for boogering up), etc., and were hard to diagnose. I've also had cdi boxes go out for no apparent reason. (I know, all electrical parts can do that but mercury parts are high compared to the universal magneto by OMC.
2. OMC went to stainless drive shafts much sooner than merc.
3. The 2-piece lower unit housings were easier to get apart than the merc lower units without boogering them up.
4. Last of all, the merc cooling systems can be a real PITA to get just right, and if they aren't, will quickly ruin a cylinder or three.

I personally like all American made oldies with the exception of Chrysler, and love the power, sound, and looks of the Mercury motors. But, they aren't from MY experience as easy to find in a condition that they can be easily/cheaply fixed as an OMC. In my area, it would be hard to find a tower of power in good running condition, but then again, in my area it's hard to find any motor over 10yrs. old in decent condition because the boating season is year-round and motors get worn out relatively quickly.
I will quickly admit that I don't know much at all about those towers of power and that if I found one with good compression on all 6 cylinders and had a lot of extra cash, it would be fun to learn how they work and get one fixed and run it. I would probably check the prices and availability of those electrical parts and lower unit seals and such before I dropped any dough on one. I also would expect to have a boat with a HECK of a sturdy transom to strap it on, because those mercs make incredible torque and will really mess up a transom!
Anyway, that's my viewpoint on the merc vs. OMC thing.
JBJ

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I also think that OMR may be slightly incorrect if he thinks there are more older mercs in RUNNING condition than OMC.

Exactly. As you and I both know, JBJ, in many parts of Louisiana darn near everyone has a boat of some sort. In fact, there are more than a few who have a boat, but don't own a car! Here in SE Louisiana, I'll bet I don't see more than a half a dozen old, but operable Mercs in a year. By old, I mean pre-1980.

What I do see, are plenty of new Mercs and Yamahas. Suzuki is another popular brand, but doesn't come close to being seen in the same numbers as the Mercs and Yammys. ETecs are seen on a regular basis, but I don't think they come close to Mercs or Yammys, either.

Truth be told, my next motor might just be a 2-stroke Yamaha 90hp. The design is darn near a clone of the OMC triples, but the oil injection system seems to be a lot more reliable. They have decent power and I'm told they are really good on gas. I am slowly rebuilding a 19' Thunderbird and, man, would I love to put a pair of those things on it!



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[OldMercsRule]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Hmmmmmmmmmm...... lots of ancedotal stuff floatin' round out there eh?? Specially from fellers who don't run Mercs............

Both JBJ n' Jay Merrell are from LA n' I don't know if there is any fresh water in that whole state, is there????? The big river is kinda muddy is it not? Up here in God's country the big rivers like the Columbia are clean n' pure.

Most the big water in LA is brackish, n' old Mercs are not sooooo good in less then fresh water.

There are not many Mercs in Alaska either as most fellers up North use 'em in salt water n' the older Mercs ruined the rep up there where the bears are real big.

FYI: The Puget Sound has as many boats per capita as anyplace in the world, n' Mercs are very abundent: new, old, all kinds. I like the bad reputation Mercs have (that you fellers continue ta spread) as I can collect very fine runners fer real cheap $.

I dissagree with JBJ about the Merc electronic ignitions, AGAIN, and I'm speakin' from cornsiderable real world experience not from jus' what I read.

Facts are Johnnyrude prolly outsold Merc in small engines where the Merc dominated was the large high powered ones: specifically the inline6.

Those who don't own one (or in my case many of 'em), can throw stones from ZERO experience n' readin' carp n' drinkin' Kool aid all they want. Fact is: the inline6 Mercs are very purdy very powerful, n' very dependable engines, if ya have one functional brain cell n' pay attention to yer tell tale n' yer fuel system.

I like Johnnyrudes too, (from real life experiences with 'em), butt: OMC did go under n' ya can claim lots of stuff 'bout the fact that Mars revolves around the sun n' such. Fact is: the direct injection engines n' the 'lectric shift LUs were junk. N' junk doesn't give ya a good reputation fer future sales of outboards. Shockin' eh?

Me overpriced $.02. JR

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Exactly. As you and I both know, JBJ, in many parts of Louisiana darn near everyone has a boat of some sort. In fact, there are more than a few who have a boat, but don't own a car! Here in SE Louisiana, I'll bet I don't see more than a half a dozen old, but operable Mercs in a year. By old, I mean pre-1980.

What I do see, are plenty of new Mercs and Yamahas. Suzuki is another popular brand, but doesn't come close to being seen in the same numbers as the Mercs and Yammys. ETecs are seen on a regular basis, but I don't think they come close to Mercs or Yammys, either.

Truth be told, my next motor might just be a 2-stroke Yamaha 90hp. The design is darn near a clone of the OMC triples, but the oil injection system seems to be a lot more reliable. They have decent power and I'm told they are really good on gas. I am slowly rebuilding a 19' Thunderbird and, man, would I love to put a pair of those things on it!



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I have to agree with you and JBJ on this Jay. Up here in the PNW (Canada) the Johnnyrudes definitely outnumber the merc stuff from that pre 80's era. Interestingly when I was a teenager in the 70's the mercs/Johnnyrude usage appeared to be about 50/50. These days most of the remaining used motors from that era are the Johnnyrudes for sure with the odd Merc up for grabs.
We pretty much wrote the book on fresh water lake usage up here in the Great White North so maybe a few other Canucks will weigh in on what they find in the other provinces. Around these parts we have more water than we know what to do with....fresh and salt.
All Good
BP

 

[cougar1985]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Hey from ONTARIO!second only in size to ALASKA!I dont know if its a regional thing or not but omc,s of the pre 1990,s lets say, out number mercs by a very large margin.Of the newer models (4 pokes),around my neck of the woods its evenly split between yamaha and merc.Your lucky oldmercsrules ,if i went out to find a i6 tomorrow around here id have a better chance of winning the lottery.The only info i could find on sales was for 2000 when omc sold 100,000 units ,fully 1/3 of total sales by all manufactures.Its interestimg to note that omc was dogged by the EPA for decades about one of the plants and it caused them no end of fits and drained large amouts of money .No one thing brought omc to its knees ,it was a combination of many things ,the least of them was the motors though not totally without their own problems which in time were adressed.I personally know one dealer who switched to merc because he would not send customers out on the water with a fitch motor!Doesnt have anything bad to say about the new e-tecs though.I know a few people who have the later fitch,s and they say they are very good so brp must of fixed them .Personally if i cant work on it i dont want it,but i suppose just like trucks there will come a day when all that will be left will be high tech motors and i think the world will be the lesser for their going(i6 and v4).Enjoy and cherish your oldies guys, no matter wether they be merc or omc.

 

[Brian D]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Stick with a dependable engine, go johnson!

I can remember fishing with my dad and grandfather back in those years and 9 out of the 10 boats being towed to the dock had Mercs. That may be not be the case today, but your not buying a new outboard.

 

[aganser]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Okay,

I'm going to add one more thing no one else has mentioned. Above all these are recreational toys we are talking about. Reliability is based on your ability to maintain any motor, and some may require more maintanance ( or money) than others. So what!!! If it's cool to you Then that's what counts! I like them all, and one thing that's obvious is that the new motors of today lack the "personality" of motors from the past. I remember seeing boats going by in the sunset. All you could see was the siloute of the motor and hear it and you could tell what it was. Today's motors, while I'm sure are quite dependable, are about as generic as a Hyundai. I appreciate dependability but I demand more. For that reason I will learn to make my green tank Merc's and Pre 1950 Johnsons as dependable as I can.

There is nothing like the growl of a vintage OMC during a holeshot, nor the whine of a Merc, be it a green tank one or a tower of power as well!! I miss them all!!

My .02 cents.

Bob

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

I don't miss the old motors - I run them! Just got back about an hour ago from a SAR for the USCG, using my 38 year old, hydro-electric shift Johnson.



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[Chinewalker]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Incidentally, the best selling large outboard series of all time is the Johnrude crossflow V4. Period. There are more of them in service than any other.

As for Mercury being underrated for horsepower in the early days - they were if you were comparing apples to apples. But, as noted earlier, they used a different standard for rating them than the industry standard the other brands used. The alternative method involved rating the horsepower at a lower RPM. The old Merc KG7 DID in fact put out 10 horsepower at 4000 RPM. HOWEVER, the dinky little prop they shipped with it would let it sing up to over 5000 on a light hull and at 5500 RPM it was putting out closer to 18 hp. Yes, this was for marketing purposes - you'll note that in much old literature there is an asterisk next to the horsepower rating with the notation that "Horsepower varies with RPM". They did away with this method by the early 1960s.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Chinewalker states: Incidentally, the best selling large outboard series of all time is the Johnrude crossflow V4. Period.

Hate to correct one of the "big guns" here on iboats, butt: yer dead wrong about the past sales volume of v-4 Johnnyrudes vs inline6 Mercs. I'm not gonna go to down town Seattle, pay parking n' take me time ta pull the numbers from the bidness library ta prove ya wrong, (as the internet doesn't have the data), butt yer wrong.

Mercs may not sell big numbers in many places in the world, butt when they had a good dealer network like in the Seattle or Portland Metro areas they dominated sales in the large HP engines, (not the small HP engines). The gross world wide sales revenue fer Mercs over the years were also higher, (not unit sales), due to the higher prices of the larger engines. Facts are facts n' truth is truth, n' what I jus' stated is fact.

There are more of them in service than any other.

Dunno 'bout the "in service" data. That said: I'm sure about the primary unit sales of inline6s vs v-4s.

As for Mercury being underrated for horsepower in the early days - they were if you were comparing apples to apples. But, as noted earlier, they used a different standard for rating them than the industry standard the other brands used. The alternative method involved rating the horsepower at a lower RPM. The old Merc KG7 DID in fact put out 10 horsepower at 4000 RPM. HOWEVER, the dinky little prop they shipped with it would let it sing up to over 5000 on a light hull and at 5500 RPM it was putting out closer to 18 hp.

Agreed.

Yes, this was for marketing purposes - you'll note that in much old literature there is an asterisk next to the horsepower rating with the notation that "Horsepower varies with RPM". They did away with this method by the early 1960s.

Well...... on the same hull with the same weight in the boat me 1150 or 115 towers pre 1982, (rated at the crank), dominate the 115 Johnnyrude v-4s from outa the hole to top speed.

I'm an agressive slalom skiier, and the torque of the inline6 is far greater then the v-4 outa the hole pullin' me fat 215 lb arse from deep water.

Methinks it is the geometry of an inline6 which produces far greater torque with the same cubic inches.

The post 1982 115s, (rated at the crank), run away from the Johnnyrude late model, (1986 plus 115s) as well. Most Mercs up to the late 1980s were relatively underated, (dunno 'bout the newer stuff), n' me three 25 HP Mercs: early 1980s; 1989; n' 1996 blow 25 hp Johnnyrudes into the weeds as well. Dunno why: unless they are underated as well.

Sorry ta correct yer bad info as you are a very helpfull n' sharp feller who knows far more then me about outboard engines. Now bidnesss: that is my forte.

Respectfully, (and I mean it), JR

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Believe what you want... I've worked at and and dealt with marinas from both sides of that fence in one of the largest freshwater boating areas in the world and there are simply more Johnrude V4s out there than Merc inline 6s. Maybe more I-6s than Evinrude alone or Johnson alone, but not combined...

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Chinewalker states:

Believe what you want...

Yup that I'm gonna do, n' you do the same now........ ya hear? I can back up the ol' Murkster's beliefs, (when I read the Merc history on Scream n' Fly), which states the same thing I did earlier in this thread: THE inline6 WAS THE MOST POPULAR HIGH POWER CORNSUMER ENGINE IN HISTORY.

I've worked at and and dealt with marinas from both sides of that fence

I have admitted that ya know far more about the mechanical aspects of outboard engines then I do.

in one of the largest freshwater boating areas in the world and there are simply more Johnrude V4s out there than Merc inline 6s.

There is more population in yer location then the place I call home, butt: the greatest per capita boat ownership on planet earth is the PNW of the good ol' USA, (God's Country). N' I'm tellin' ya there is a whole lotta Merc inline6s out here in this neck of the woods. N' the sales right here in the PNW is what gave Merc the number 1 unit sales position in high powered outboards, (as I state). Now I'm NOT talkin' about unit sales since ol' Ole got the first patent, I'm talkin' inline6s vs V-4 Johnnyrudes, (from the late 1950s to 1988). Note: the v-4 Johnnys n' Rudes were number 2 in history.


Maybe more I-6s than Evinrude alone or Johnson alone, but not combined...

Yup cornbined.

Sorry; ya maybe a real big gun here on iboats, and I do respect yer cornsiderable knowledge, butt: the real big guns on Scream n' Fly don't agree with ya n' they are many of the primary people from the outboard industry.

I stand by me truthful statement: THE MERCURY, (n' Mariner), inline6 sold more units world wide from the late 1950s to 1988 then any other high powered outboard in history.

Respectfully, (and I mean it), JR

 

[ChrisAG]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

As far as old engines, I don't see many inline 6 Mercs in cottage country (Muskoka, Ontario), but I see more than a few V4 OMCs of the same vintage. Whether that means there were more OMCs sold, or they are more reliable than the Mercs, I don't know.

For new engines Yamaha and Suzuki seem to be most popular, but there are also some new Mercurys and E-tecs. I hope Merc and Evinrude can regain a solid foothold, just like the old days.

 

[McGR]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

Back in the day when Johnnyrude V4s and Tower of Powers were the rage, OMC advertisements never let you forget that that they were the world's largest producers of outboard motors. It would seem fairly logical that they were selling more of their big motors (V4s) than their competition during this time period. My perception is that they sold more and they lasted longer too.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Johnson or Mercury

McGR states:

Back in the day when Johnnyrude V4s and Tower of Powers were the rage, OMC advertisements never let you forget that that they were the world's largest producers of outboard motors.

That is number of units, (which OMC did produce more small engines), and also did it longer then Merc.


It would seem fairly logical that they were selling more of their big motors (V4s) than their competition during this time period.

Might seem logical butt: that doesn't mean it happened. Read the history of outboards, (both OMC and Merc), on Scream n' Fly, (it may jog yer incorrect notions about high horse power unit sales, if ya care to get a dose of actual reality).

As I said: The inline6 was the largest selling high HP outboard engine in the world in history from the late 1950s to 1988, (no matter what it seemed like) from variuos areas where maybe Merc dealers were weak from the late 1950s on.

My perception is that they sold more and they lasted longer too.

That seems to be the dominmate perception here on iboats. That doesn't make it a fact though.

I'm glad all you fellers don't like me towers as it makes 'em real cheap ta pick up in the after market.

The Johnnyrudes do command a higher price in the used market.

All I can say is ya don't wanna race me purdy screamin' smooooookin' hot ol' Black girls with any ol' hog v-4 Johnnyrude as yer not gonna win that part of the claim ta fame you Johnnyrude fellers also like ta talk about from time ta time.

Me overpriced $.02. JR