Just clearing the air

[tjhawk]

A friend of mine thinks that a bone stock engine out of a truck will work in his boat. I told him that is true mechanically, but cams,gaskets, hardware ect are different. He won't listen. He also thinks reverse rotation drives are backwards running engines. Anyone got a Merc link to help me out and show him the evil of him ways.

 

[Don S]

Re: Just clearing the air

Years ago there were lots of counter rotating engines. Now days, it's done in the drive.<br />Alpha drives have counter rotating lower units.<br />Here is links to a couple of service manuals from Mercruiser showing the counter rotating lowers.<br /><br /> http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Servmanl/6/6covr3.pdf <br /><br /> http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Servmanl/14/14cover.pdf <br /><br />The Bravo drives and all of Volvo just changed the linkage and the props for reverse rotation.<br /><br />Don't know of any links to reverse rotation engines, but Mercruiser used them along with ChrisCraft, just to name a couple. Usually you will find the reverse rotation engines in inboard applications instead of outdrives.

 

[jaybirdtx]

Re: Just clearing the air

Crusader engines at one time were reverse rotation. Normal firing order on a V-8 is 18436572. On a Crusader reverse rotation the firing order was 12756348.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Just clearing the air

A friend of mine thinks that a bone stock engine out of a truck will work in his boat. I told him that is true mechanically, but cams,gaskets, hardware ect are different. He won't listen.

'Cause,........ Basicly,..... He's Right............<br /> Marine, Vs. Auto,.. Right here on page 1......

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: Just clearing the air

While I was searching Engine rebuilders and or, remanufacturers. I found a couple that had a lot of reverse rotation engines in a lot of makes and sizes. Good or bad engines? I can't say. Cost difference was less than $200 all the time.------------------Edit thought. Dont put a reverse rotation engine in front of a standard rotation drive. Other than a water pump problem, there could de other considerations. Service guys will fill in the blanks on this.

 

[tjhawk]

Re: Just clearing the air

I don't know how long you've worked on boats as a pro BONDO but I've read many things that are different. <br />For example High Silica Blocks which don't rust thru, different head gaskets which take the salt better, brass core plugs, special coatings on exh valves which help with moisture from water cooled manifolds. Also cams are differnt. When was the last time you ran your truck at W.O.T(wide open throttle) for a few hours at a stretch. Also stock internals are weaker as well as cranks are differnt.(example bolt pattern on a two piece rear main are differnt from one piece in marine applications) Some marine engines are internaly balanced while cars are externaly balanced, also crankshaft offset is different from one piece rear main vs two. Marine heads usualy have better flow or different shaped ports all together(ex 3.0 is NOT a 2.5 iron duke, parts are not even close to same and the ports are on same side, unlike car engine)

 

[Bondo]

Re: Just clearing the air

Originally posted by Scott89racin:<br /> I don't know how long you've worked on boats as a pro BONDO but I've read many things that are different. <br />For example High Silica Blocks which don't rust thru, different head gaskets which take the salt better, brass core plugs, special coatings on exh valves which help with moisture from water cooled manifolds. Also cams are differnt. When was the last time you ran your truck at W.O.T(wide open throttle) for a few hours at a stretch. Also stock internals are weaker as well as cranks are differnt.(example bolt pattern on a two piece rear main are differnt from one piece in marine applications) Some marine engines are internaly balanced while cars are externaly balanced, also crankshaft offset is different from one piece rear main vs two. Marine heads usualy have better flow or different shaped ports all together(ex 3.0 is NOT a 2.5 iron duke, parts are not even close to same and the ports are on same side, unlike car engine)

I Don't work on Boats Professionally,.............<br /><br />I Am,+ have been a Mechanic for well over 35 Years,.......<br />I Know enough to Look Passed the Marketing Hype,+ See the Parts used to Build the Engines in Question................<br /><br />Reading this post Quoted,.........<br />You Don't have a Clue as to Why different Parts have been used When, Or For Which applications on What SBCs..............<br /><br />Just a couple points,.......<br />

High Silica Blocks which don't rust thru,

Wrong,...... That's High Nickle blocks that were designed for Hi-Pro App.s, because of the High Strength,+ Were Adapted to Marine.........<br />And,........ Are Still NOT used in Standard Production Marine Engines............... <br />

different head gaskets

As stated in the referenced thread,..... Steel Shim Gaskets are nearly a thing of the Past,.........<br />Composite Gaskets of Today,.. Don't Rust....... No Difference......<br />

brass core plugs,

OK,........ That's 1 Minor Difference......<br />

special coatings on exh valves which help with moisture from water cooled manifolds.

That's a New Fantasy..........There ARE Many Different Valves that Can be used in Hi-Pro App.s,... <br />But,..... Standard Production Marine engines Are,+ Have been using Standard Production Truck Valves..........<br />

Also cams are differnt.

As stated in the Other thread,.........SLIGHTLY Different..........<br />A Boat will Run Forever with a TRUCK Cam,+ You'll Never FEEL the Difference........... <br />

Also stock internals are weaker as well as cranks are differnt.(example bolt pattern on a two piece rear main are differnt from one piece in marine applications)

Wrong Again,............<br />Same Cranks,.........<br />The Difference between the 1 pc.,+ 2 pc. Rear Main Seals is about the Vintage of the engine in Question..........<br />All SBCs were 2 pc. seals up to 1986/87.........<br />It's got NOTHING to do with wether it's Marine or Automotive.................<br />BTW,..... ALL SBCs have been 1 pc. rear main seals Ever Since....... <br />

Some marine engines are internaly balanced while cars are externaly balanced, also crankshaft offset is different from one piece rear main vs two.

Wrong Again,..........<br />Only the 400cid SBC is Externally Balanced,..... Period.........<br />ALL the Other SBCs have been Internally Balanced,........ Since 1955............<br />Crankshaft Offset is Different,..?????..... How So.......<br />Crankshaft Offset determines the Stroke of the engine,.... Which determines the Displacement of the engine,.........<br />Which has NOTHING to do with wether it's Automotive, or Marine.............<br />

Marine heads usualy have better flow or different shaped ports all together

Wrong Again,.................<br />The Standard Production Marine Motor uses the Exact Same Heads as the Standard Production Truck engines that are being built At That Time...........<br />

ex 3.0 is NOT a 2.5 iron duke, parts are not even close to same and the ports are on same side, unlike car engine) <br />

This is a Totally Different Discussion,.........<br />The 3.0l engines are a Marine/Industrial Only motor,..........<br />It's NEVER been in an Automotive Application,............ Ever........... <br /><br />Next,.............................................................................

 

[Weirdwalt]

Re: Just clearing the air

Can I get an aaaaaaMEN Bruthas?

 

[tjhawk]

Re: Just clearing the air

hey Bondo I an just telling you what I know and have read. Ck this link. BTW you are still wrong, my uncle has worked on boats for many years and says that the new gen merccruiser are way different than they were in that past. Example again..Try putting a vortec 350 from a 96 and up truck in your boat. Many things are not the same. HMMM no fuel pump hole, different style intake(less bolts, different pattern) No distributor per say. Lots of things have changed since the 1980's. Some are minor some are major. I guess these guys are Mercury are just a bunch of jug heads and have no brains at all when it comes to building engines and components. I'm glad I have someone like YOU who can tell ME how WRONG the engineers are.<br /> http://www.perfprotech.com/home/auto-marine.htm

 

[Don S]

Re: Just clearing the air

my uncle has worked on boats for many years and says that the new gen merccruiser are way different than they were in that past.

All the things you mentioned are also different on the truck version, it's not just marine. you need to start comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges.<br /><br />A 96 Mercruiser engine long block is basicilly the same as a 96 Truck.<br />A 76 Merc engine block is the same as a 76 truck.<br />But don't even think about trying to compare a 96 or a 2005 model to the older 76 version, it ain't gonna work. But they are still known a 350's or 5.7L and they are still Chevy engines.<br /><br />Volvo, Mercruiser, Kodiak, Marine Power etc. all get their engines from GM. GM makes them salt water proof on the assembly line, but all the exhaust, carbs, alternators, etc, are supplied and speced by the marinizer.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Just clearing the air

Bondo, you better pay close attention to what Scotts uncle says, cause it appears you got some larnin' to do I thought we were discussing truck engines......Scott the link you posted to looks like part of an ad to sell their engines ..... I suppose you are right, in the strictest sense...... The core plugs, head gaskts, water pump, carb, alternator are marine versions.....So he couldn't take a truck engine right out of the crate & and install it without some minor modification.....Btw, as stated above.....Counter rotating engines do exist.....JK

 

[Bondo]

Re: Just clearing the air

Well Scott,......... This is a C&P of the link you posted,.........<br /><br />BTW,....This is from a site that SELLS Marine Engines,....... A Little Bias,... Maybe......<br /><br />All of the HYPE listed in this is Directly Addressed in My Posts............<br /><br />

Topic: Marine vs. Automotive<br />Question: Is There Really Any Difference Between a Marine Engine vs. Automotive?<br /><br />Response: Contrary to what many people claim, there truly are several differences between the automotive engine and marine. These differences prevent automotive products from performing as well as the intended marine engine. Many people attempt to save money by utilizing an automotive engine rather than marine, however in our experience these situations rarely save money in the end. Be very careful with companies who claim to offer engines not being Marine Grade, but still being the same, or compliant, or some other fancy terminology. In the end the fact still remains that you get what you pay for.<br />The freeze plugs are of a corrosion inhibiting material. <br />The head gaskets also utilize corrosion resistant construction. <br />The valve guides utilize corrosion resistant construction. <br />The water pumps are intended for a marine operating environment (seals and bearings). <br />The camshaft is designed to marine duty requirements as needed to move a boat versus a car. <br />The overall duty cycle of a marine engine is very different than that of an automotive application. When was the last time your thought of running your car at full throttle for a sustained period of time?

The ONLY things I haven't touched on Are;<br />

The valve guides utilize corrosion resistant construction.

More Hype,........ All Valve Guides are Silicone Bronze................ <br />Nothing SPECIAL There...............<br />

The water pumps are intended for a marine operating environment (seals and bearings).

The Waterpump is Not a Part of the Engine Block,.........<br />So,... Ayuh,... It Should be a Marine Accessory............<br /><br /><br />This is a C&P of a posting I did at another forum,......<br />

For a Standard Production Marine Engine,.....<br /><br />Mercruiser,... Or Whomever,... Calls GM,.. They place an order for 10,000 engines,......<br />The salesguy at GM calls the Engine Plant in Mexico,+ Tells Him,+ starting at serial # xxxxx,... <br />They start stuffing a Slightly Different Cam into the Standard Production Truck engines that they produce,..... Every Day...................<br /><br />In a Nutshell,...........<br />A Standard Production Mercruiser engine,.........<br />IS the Same Standard Production engine that GM happens to be building on the assembleyline for Trucks,......... At That Time............<br /><br />That GM link is Pure Advertizing Hype,........<br />GM,+ Merc. have a Close working relationship,.... GM builds Alot of Special Order motors for Merc...... <br />But This is about Standard Production drivelines........<br /><br />No Forged Pistons,.......<br />No Special Pistons,......<br />No Special Blocks,........<br />No 4 bolt Blocks,..........<br />No Forged Cranks,...........<br /><br />Even the difference between a Truck Cam,+ a Marine Grind is Minimal......<br />The Truck Cam will run Just as Long,+ Just as Hard as a Marine Cam,....... You Can't Feel the difference...........<br /><br />The Difference in the Headgaskets is nearly a Moot point nowadays,..... I can barely remember the Last time I saw a Steel Shim Headgasket being used on Any SBCs,.......<br />All the 1s I've run across are Composite gaskets,...... No Saltwater Worries there.........<br /><br />Chris-Craft,+ a few others have had some Special Custom Castings done over the years from Chevy, as well as others,.......<br />But,.... Those Custom Castings happened back in the 1960s,.......... And,.. Not Since.......<br /><br />I'm Not talking about any Merc. Hi-Pro stuff,..... Just the run of the mill Standard Production engines,........<br /><br />If you've got an Alpha 1 260hp,... or Another basic driveline,....... You can go buy 1 of those $4000. Marine Engines,.......<br />Or,... Go get a GM Crate truck engine of the Same Vintage as the Merc. you've got Now,....At your Local Chevy Dealer....<br />And be back to Boating for $1200./$1500........<br /><br />Your Choice,...... Your Boat will Never Know...............<br /><br />BTW,........ If you're boating in Sweetwater,......... Brass Core Plugs Aren't at all Nessessary Either................

BTW you are still wrong, my uncle has worked on boats for many years and says that the new gen merccruiser are way different than they were in that past. Example again..Try putting a vortec 350 from a 96 and up truck in your boat. Many things are not the same. HMMM no fuel pump hole, different style intake(less bolts, different pattern)

No,........ No,........ I'm NOT Wrong,..........<br /><br />This is Exactly the Same as You trying to tell Me the Cranks are Different,..........<br /><br />Time marches On,.... Mercruiser is Still using the Standard Production Chevy Truck Engines..........<br />And,.......<br />Has adapted to the Newer Chevy engines........<br /><br />My 4.3LX has No mechanical Fuel Pump Either,.......<br />Merc. went to Electric, or belt-driven when Chevy deleted the Fuel Pump Boss.............<br /><br />The Intake Manifolds have Also changed With the TIMES,.........<br />Mercruiser went to the "Vortec" motors at the Same TIME as Chevy did.............<br /><br />And,......Again,.......<br />

No distributor per say.

That's a Marine Accessory,.................<br />Not a part of the ENGINE BLOCK............... <br /> <br />I'm Not calling Your Uncle,... Or Anybody Else a Liar,..............<br /><br />I'm Simply Stating that YOU have Alot to Learn,..........<br />And,....... YOU're having a Real Hard Time sifting the Chaff from the Wheat...........

 

[Don S]

Re: Just clearing the air

You do realize, that you can take a truck engine out of a truck and put it in a boat and use it in salt water...... All you have to do is install a closed cooling system and it doesn't matter what kind of circulation pump or core plugs you have.<br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />You still would have to change electrical and fuel to marine style as automotive is an explosion and fire hazard.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Just clearing the air

Unfortunately Don,..........<br /><br />This Kid Knows Way More than either You, or I Ever Will............................................................ <br /><br />He Read it Somewhere,................

 

[Don S]

Re: Just clearing the air

Yea, I know. Makes ya wonder why he asked a question to begin with when he already has the best information known to mankind. (uncle has worked on boats for many years and says ....)<br /><br /><br />Wonder who this wonder uncle actually is. We could all use some of his edge-gee-kay-shun for sure.

 

[tjhawk]

Re: Just clearing the air

After I saw the posts my wife told me to call and get the correct info. I forgot he did work on boats until she reminded me, he is kind of a step uncle and he is a bit older than me and they live elseware so it hadn't occured to me to call him. I'm done here. You do what ya like as for me I'm glad I know what I know so I can get things done correctly and cost effectively.<br />I'm outta here...peace out.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Just clearing the air

Stick around Scott, don't let these guys scare you off. Maybe, if you lurk around in the background, ya never know, you might end up teaching your uncle a thing or two.

 

[Weirdwalt]

Re: Just clearing the air

I seriously doubt that Dudarama. Sounds like the kid is just like his Uncle. Can't learn anything since he already knows it all. Meet these guys every week, His (insert relative here) told him so it must be true no matter what the certified, bonified, qualified, drunkified, fatified, baldified, experiencified professional is saying. Hell even I've been wrong once or twice, god forbid his Uncle might actually be wrong.<br />But I digress. <br />Stick around kid, you'll learn something and develop a thick skin.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Just clearing the air

My 2 cents...(saltwater and only raw cooled) trashed the 77 350 in 96, auto rebuild with the old cam, and brass plugs (and that time, saltwater head gaskets if I remember), and the old marine bolt on's bolted on...like the energizer bunny still going ...but...with a few exhaust manifold changes, new carb Marine 600cfm EB, aluminum manifold, new marine circ pump....

 

[neilmw]

Re: Just clearing the air

I am always up for a lively debate, however you cant join a forum and after 4 posts start questioning the knowledge of people who clearly know what they are talking about.....can you ??