K&N flame arrestor

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

If your fuel mileage is really dropping 16% in 3K miles, its not your air filter that is the problem.

Interesting what people believe that's for sure!

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Interesting article...
I also have a corvette, ls6 z06,
I'm sure Tim knows this, but for others... When you change the air filter and or air path to flow more air than the "factory tune" you have to do a computer re-set that tells to computer to build new fuel tables. It can only compensate a certain % while running from this table. I think the filter could get clogged enough that it would get out side of what the computer can adjust for while running down the road on this table developed to run on this free flowing filter. If you did a new re-set with the clogged filter, either with the appropriate scan tool or by leaving it off the battery and going thru the manual procedure, it would develop tables to run efficiently with the now more restricted filter. The cars in the article must not have been clogged enough to get out side the parameters of what the computer could adjust for, by taking fuel away to maintain proper afr.

Also to others, the corvettes have a computer that relays tons of info to a dash display.... instant mpg, avg mpg, etc. That's prob why Tim is able to relay exact performance of the filter as he is using it.

Air flow gains from some of the air filter and air tubes on corvettes are massive. I have seen it many times on the rear wheel dyno on back to back pulls. As much as 15-20hp on a nearly stock car. Some say "well why didn't GM produce it that way", well because if you drive a corvette thru a deep puddle with one of these big open element filters it will take in enough water to hydro-lock the engine. I have seen the aftermath on more than one such set up.

As to the o/p.. I know nothing specific to your 2006 mpi set up but if you can find a high flow filter that fits and your computer has the ability to adjust to increased air flow on its own or you can have it adjusted to recognize the increased air flow, WOT operation should technically see gains. If gains can be made the market usually provides it. Although they may over-hype the gains.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Interesting that both of you ignored the facts presented in the article and continue to go with your preconceived notions of how fuel injection works. Three reserachers in the article are energy and transportation scientists at the Oak Ridge National Labratory.

As to what the OP wants to do, if a spark arrestor or air filter is more free flowing, it will indeed help you at full throttle, high RPM situations and the fuel injection will indeed deliver more fuel to match the increased air flow. Of course 99.9% of the time most boaters never operate in those situations. Most automotive drivers don't either. If you actually read the article I posted, you will see the fuel mileage is not affected despite what Joe and Tim happen to think.

By the way, I am a former Delco Electronics electrical engineer that did work with ECMs for GM in the mid 90s.

 

[cribber]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

I put a K&N flame arrestor on top of my Volvo Penta 3.0l I swear that engine looks like it's doing fifty with that big chrome hat on top of all that bright red Volvo paint.

Seriously, I use K&N because it's the last air filter you'll ever buy... I have them on everything I own that runs on Dino. They are the best reusable air filter on the market IMHO.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Seriously, I use K&N because it's the last air filter you'll ever buy... I have them on everything I own that runs on Dino. They are the best reusable air filter on the market IMHO.

I used to use them until I found out how much dirt they let by. Put 3 of them in the trash can.

 

[Tahorover]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

I used to use them until I found out how much dirt they let buy. Put 3 of them in the trash can.

So your saying that a stock flame arrestor is going to filter better? Is there a better USCG approved filter?

 

[Don S]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

A flame arrestor is not a filter.
It is there for one reason, and one reason only. To stop flames from things like backfires from setting things on fire in the enclosed engine compartment of a boat.

Do you see filters on outboards ???? NO !

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

So your saying that a stock flame arrestor is going to filter better? Is there a better USCG approved filter?

I was referring to automotive usage. 99.9% of the time I see no need for an air filter on a boat.

 

[Tahorover]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

I was referring to automotive usage. 99.9% of the time I see no need for an air filter on a boat.

How is bringing automotive experiences in to this even relevant? I live and boat in a dusty AG area. Keeping abrasives out of my engine makes nothing but good sense.

Sorry Don I don't do outboards. but my two stroke inboard Jet Mate has a filter stock!

All farm land:

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

How is bringing automotive experiences in to this even relevant?

I didn't. I was responding to Joe and Tim who brought up their usage of these type of filters on autos which is how the whole thread got sidetracked.

As far as your needs, it is possible that is the 0.01% of boating that may require it.

Bottom line, the OP won't benefit from one if he is trying to increase performance or MPG.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Interesting that both of you ignored the facts presented in the article and continue to go with your preconceived notions of how fuel injection works. Three reserachers in the article are energy and transportation scientists at the Oak Ridge National Labratory.

As to what the OP wants to do, if a spark arrestor or air filter is more free flowing, it will indeed help you at full throttle, high RPM situations and the fuel injection will indeed deliver more fuel to match the increased air flow. Of course 99.9% of the time most boaters never operate in those situations. Most automotive drivers don't either. If you actually read the article I posted, you will see the fuel mileage is not affected despite what Joe and Tim happen to think.

By the way, I am a former Delco Electronics electrical engineer that did work with ECMs for GM in the mid 90s.

I will openly admit to only scanning the article, but got enough to understand the points they were making. I have a pretty good understanding of fuel injection, enough to use HP tuners software to reconfigure it to work out side the parameters of which it was intended to. I have spent quit a bit of time in a shop with an engine and rear wheel dyno. I operate under wide WOT every time I take my boat out, at least a little, as does every person i know. So we must all be in the .001 % you talk about. I certainly use the WOT on my Corvette each time i take it out. You would not be the first Engineer I left behind at the racetrack.

To the o/p I looked and could not find the correct filter for your engine but that doesn't mean its not out there.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

It has to be WOT at max RPMS. WOT at 2000RPM is not going to be flowing anymore air than half throttle at 2000RPMS. Are you saying you are running max RPM on your boat everytime you take it out? I say you are in the very minority if you do.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

I didn't. I was responding to Joe and Tim who brought up their usage of these type of filters on autos which is how the whole thread got sidetracked.

As far as your needs, it is possible that is the 0.01% of boating that may require it.

Bottom line, the OP won't benefit from one if he is trying to increase performance or MPG.

So now your saying by adding a filter he might decrease his mileage ?? Kinda contradicting yourself and your article.
What is the .001% of boating where it is a good idea?
I contend that the only reason its not a good idea is because of the potential fire danger. It is nothing but good to filter the air that you pump through your engine.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

So now your saying by adding a filter he might decrease his mileage ?? Kinda contradicting yourself and your article.

Its not going to affect his MPG at all!

If you boating in a dusty area I can see the need for a filter but has nothing to do with performance.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

It has to be WOT at max RPMS. WOT at 2000RPM is not going to be flowing anymore air than half throttle at 2000RPMS. Are you saying you are running max RPM on your boat everytime you take it out? I say you are in the very minority if you do.

Bruce,
I got some bad news for you.... anytime you increase the engines efficiency/ability to flow air you will increase the power through out the rpm range regardless if you are operating at peak rpm as long as you don't over do something and kill velocity. You obviously didn't spend any time in a dyno cell while helping work on those ECM's or you would be familiar with making changes and the results they have.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

It has to be WOT at max RPMS. WOT at 2000RPM is not going to be flowing anymore air than half throttle at 2000RPMS. Are you saying you are running max RPM on your boat everytime you take it out? I say you are in the very minority if you do.

I bet if you do a poll It's no where near the .001% you claim... :facepalm:

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Whatever you say Joe.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Whatever you say Joe.

Bruce,
Hold on I'm going out to the garage to remove all the aftermarket parts on my car because i wasted my money and it only makes more power at reline where i hardly ever operate at! You think i can get my money back? :facepalm:

To the o/p if you can find a safe way to filter the air going into your engine it is a good thing.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

Bruce,
Hold on I'm going out to the garage to remove all the aftermarket parts on my car because i wasted my money and it only makes more power at reline where i hardly ever operate at! You think i can get my money back? :facepalm:

I suggest eBay or Craigslist.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: K&N flame arrestor

If your fuel mileage is really dropping 16% in 3K miles, its not your air filter that is the problem.

Interesting what people believe that's for sure!

it's not a matter of believing or not believing anything. It's a fact, my highway fuel mileage starts to drop after 3-4k miles, then when filter is cleaned and reoiled, it goes back up. It's not a K&N, but a blackwing, but is the oiled element type similar to K&N... And because of other mods to the top end, 4.10 gears, exhaust, etc... the car isn't running the factory tune. It's been tuned on a dyno with a wideband sensor in the exhaust.

definately relevant to the op's post: K&N filters may be crap, but they certainly filter more than most flame arrestors...

the other thing that bears mentinoing is that MAF sensors do not have a direct linear response - they're calibrated and their response changes depending on the velocity, etc... why do you think that the exact same MAF sensor wil have a different calibration when used on different vehicles?

I read the report of the scientists at ORNL carefully. It makes sense, but is not necessarily valid once you deviate from the stock airbox, nor is it necessarily valid in a marine application (Are we running oxygen sensords and an adaptive feedback loop that can accomodate relatively large shanges in air flow?). There was also not a wide enough range of experimental conditions to draw conclusions much beyond the specific vehicles and conditions they used. Just because someone has a PhD doesn't necessarily mean that every conclusion they draw is dead on the money. no disrespect intended to our scientist friends at ornl, just saying...

no need to be cross btw. it's just a friendly conversation...