Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

scf8169

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Hey, I have a 1981 Sea Ray 245 Sundancer with an MCM 260 that was repowered in '05 (according to the previous owner). I bought it in '06, and it purred like a bengal tiger until this season. Last season, the drive started mixing water in the oil ( possible shift shaft seal leak) but, since it was beat all to crap, I decided to put a new SE106 drive in it over the winter. This season, it has run like crap from the first time it was in the water. Does not want to accelerate, bogs down BAD, even killing the engine if I try to give it too much. I can get it on plane after about 4-5 minutes of playing with the throttle and the trim tabs, at a maximum of 3600 rpm's. Haven't even been able to properly break in the drive. No overheating issues, won't even get to half of the temp. gauge, you can hold your hands (momentarily) on both exhaust manifolds, and the y-pipes are still painted black, with an oily sheen, and the boots are firm, yet pliable. Here's what I've done so far: New plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, carburetor, checked timing, #1 and #6 both line up at 8 deg. BTDC, multi meter tests of the entire electrical system looking for voltage drops, compression test, all cylinders at 150-165 psi, with no leakdown, and I manually pulled every plug, all have a strong, crisp snap, and will jump a blue arc about 1/2"- 3/4" from ground. I did a propane test around the carb base and intake flanges, and noticed a little smoothing out when I held it around the throttle linkage going into the carb body. A brand new vacuum guage attached at the plug between the carb and distributor shows a steady reading of 9-11 in. at all rpm's. Didn't change when I did the propane test, won't even jump when you goose the throttle. According to the book, this indicates late valve timing. But that would have had to have happened while running, as in skipping a tooth on one of the timing gears, and if it had happened last season while I was driving it, I can assure you, I would have noticed, because the difference in the way it runs is DRASTIC. Would a stuck closed exhaust flapper cause this? Like I said, the engine and exhaust components show no sign of overheating, and on the muffs, it has good water flow. How about the intake manifold? it's the original, 30 years old, and the boat is raw water cooled. Is it possible it could have a rotted out section that is causing a vacuum leak? Could water have gotten trapped in it somewhere, frozen over the winter, and lifted or separated the flange somewhere? I am at my wit's end with this thing, and I really don't want to break down the front of the engine, crammed all up behind the fuel tank, only to find that the gears are where they are supposed to be, and still not have it figured out. PLEASE HELP!!!!
 

Gettinther

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jul 7, 2010
Messages
129
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Hey, I have a 1981 Sea Ray 245 Sundancer with an MCM 260 that was repowered in '05 (according to the previous owner). I bought it in '06, and it purred like a bengal tiger until this season. Last season, the drive started mixing water in the oil ( possible shift shaft seal leak) but, since it was beat all to crap, I decided to put a new SE106 drive in it over the winter. This season, it has run like crap from the first time it was in the water. Does not want to accelerate, bogs down BAD, even killing the engine if I try to give it too much. I can get it on plane after about 4-5 minutes of playing with the throttle and the trim tabs, at a maximum of 3600 rpm's. Haven't even been able to properly break in the drive. No overheating issues, won't even get to half of the temp. guage, and you can hold your hands (momentarily) on both exhaust manifolds, and the pipes are still painted black, with an oily sheen, and the boots are firm, yet pliable. Here's what I've done so far: New plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, carburetor, checked timing, #1 and #6 both line up at 8 deg. BTDC, multi meter tests of the entire electrical system looking for voltage drops, compression test, all cylinders at 150-165 psi, with no leakdown, and I manually pulled every plug, all have a strong, crisp snap. I did a propane test around the carb base and intake flanges, and noticed a little smoothing out when I held it around the throttle linkage going into the carb body. A brand new vacuum guage attached at the plug between the carb and distributor shows a steady reading of 9-11 in. at all rpm's. Didn't change when I did the propane test, won't even jump when you goose the throttle. According to the book, this indicates late valve timing. But that would have had to have happened while running, as in skipping a tooth on one of the timing gears, and if it had happened last season while I was driving it, I can assure you, I would have noticed, because the difference in the way it runs is DRASTIC. Would a stuck closed exhaust flapper cause this? Like I said, the engine and exhaust components show no sign of overheating, and on the muffs, it has good water flow. How about the intake manifold? Is it possible it could have a rotted out section that is causing a vacuum leak? Could water have gotten trapped in it somewhere, frozen over the winter, and lifted or separated the flange somewhere? I am at my wit's end with this thing, and I really don't want to break down the front of the engine only to find that the gears are where they are supposed to be, and still not have it figured out. PLEASE HELP!!!!

Same prop?
Same gear ratio in the new drive ?
Old Fuel?
What does it run like on muffs does the engine sound laboured?
 

scf8169

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Jun 26, 2011
Messages
29
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Same gear ratio, 1.47:1, I even pulled the top cover and counted the teeth to make sure. 20-22. 14 1/2" dia.x 17" pitch prop, same one off the old drive. Runs fine on the muffs, and in neutral, winds up fine, no hesitation, but that doesn't mean anything.
 

scf8169

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Messages
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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Oh, and I've put 60 or more gallons of Premium in it this season, and I ALWAYS put Marine Sta-bil, and sometimes Lucas fuel treatment, in it. I've run it about 15-20 hours this season in the water, and about 10 on the trailer.
 

John_S

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Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Messages
4,269
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

A number of vacuum gauge reading sites indicated:

Engine: Slight Intake Leak or Late Valve Timing
Gauge Display: Low steady reading @ ~10 in/Hg at Idle
Means: Test your intake with carb cleaner or starter fluid in hopes for the engine to smooth or RPMs to change. If not and your intake is sound, then You have a lot of work to do in order to properly correct the issue.



Given your propane test did smooth out engine on one test, most likely leak vs late valve timing. Is it the original Q jet? They are known for developing a vacuum leak in the throttle shafts. Choke pull-off hose cracked/leaking? Idle mixture screws are not turned in too far?

When you rev the engine, are you saying you are not getting a drop in vacuum?

Plugged exhaust would start higher and gradually drop, so would say that is unlikely.
 

scf8169

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Jun 26, 2011
Messages
29
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

It only drops to about 9 in., then settles out at about 11 in. Not much fluctuation at all, even when goosing the throttle. Seems like it's acting and moving exactly as it should when normal, except the 10 in. low reading. It is the original Q- jet carb on there now, I had a new one on there, but took it off while I'm trying to get this problem diagnosed, because the extra fuel it was dumping to it wasn't helping. Only hose is the secondary pull off, and it's good. Idle mixture screws are where they were before, haven't adjusted the carb at all. If 18-20" is the norm, isn't a 9-10" drop a pretty serious leak? Something that could be heard?
 
Last edited:

scf8169

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Jun 26, 2011
Messages
29
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Well, it's not the exhaust. Pulled the risers and boots, tried to fill the exhaust y-pipes with water, but it ran out the sterndrive, no problem. Took a look at the flappers with a friend's video snake, no problems there either. Gonna take off the intake, check it out and reinstall it. If that don't work, I'm going to have to decide if I want to pull the engine and check the timing, or make an artificial reef out of the stupid thing. You know, the older I get, the less fun it is having a boat.
 

bruceb58

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Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,581
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Double check...triple check the spark plug wires for the correct firing order. Trust me, a V8 can idle pretty darn smooth with a couple switched. I went through this for 5 days before finding this one.

Also replace the fuel filter and possibly run off an external tank as a test to make sure its not a tank issue.

Have you checked the fuel pump pressure?
 

Bt Doctur

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Aug 29, 2004
Messages
19,344
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

I agree, swap 5 and 7 and you wont tell the difference.double check 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2
 

Gettinther

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
129
Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Hey, I have a 1981 Sea Ray 245 Sundancer with an MCM 260 that was repowered in '05 (according to the previous owner). I bought it in '06, and it purred like a bengal tiger until this season. Last season, the drive started mixing water in the oil ( possible shift shaft seal leak) but, since it was beat all to crap, I decided to put a new SE106 drive in it over the winter. This season, it has run like crap from the first time it was in the water. Does not want to accelerate, bogs down BAD, even killing the engine if I try to give it too much. I can get it on plane after about 4-5 minutes of playing with the throttle and the trim tabs, at a maximum of 3600 rpm's. Haven't even been able to properly break in the drive. No overheating issues, won't even get to half of the temp. gauge, you can hold your hands (momentarily) on both exhaust manifolds, and the y-pipes are still painted black, with an oily sheen, and the boots are firm, yet pliable. Here's what I've done so far: New plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, carburetor, checked timing, #1 and #6 both line up at 8 deg. BTDC, multi meter tests of the entire electrical system looking for voltage drops, compression test, all cylinders at 150-165 psi, with no leakdown, and I manually pulled every plug, all have a strong, crisp snap, and will jump a blue arc about 1/2"- 3/4" from ground. I did a propane test around the carb base and intake flanges, and noticed a little smoothing out when I held it around the throttle linkage going into the carb body. A brand new vacuum guage attached at the plug between the carb and distributor shows a steady reading of 9-11 in. at all rpm's. Didn't change when I did the propane test, won't even jump when you goose the throttle. According to the book, this indicates late valve timing. But that would have had to have happened while running, as in skipping a tooth on one of the timing gears, and if it had happened last season while I was driving it, I can assure you, I would have noticed, because the difference in the way it runs is DRASTIC. Would a stuck closed exhaust flapper cause this? Like I said, the engine and exhaust components show no sign of overheating, and on the muffs, it has good water flow. How about the intake manifold? it's the original, 30 years old, and the boat is raw water cooled. Is it possible it could have a rotted out section that is causing a vacuum leak? Could water have gotten trapped in it somewhere, frozen over the winter, and lifted or separated the flange somewhere? I am at my wit's end with this thing, and I really don't want to break down the front of the engine, crammed all up behind the fuel tank, only to find that the gears are where they are supposed to be, and still not have it figured out. PLEASE HELP!!!!

"According to the book, this indicates late valve timing. But that would have had to have happened while running, as in skipping a tooth on one of the timing gears,"
Actually this happens quite often while cranking an engine and before it starts
 

scf8169

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

I've pulled the wires and rechecked them probably 6 or 8 times. That was the first thing my buddy checked, and he is the head mechanic at the local city garage. Fuel filter is new, fuel/ water separator is new. Hadn't checked the fuel pump pressure, because I get a strong unburnt fuel smell in the exhaust, and I can see fuel spraying into the carb while running, and when I throttle it when it's not running. Gettinther, I REALLY didn't want to hear that the the chain will jump while starting.... like I said, the chain is tight, the rotor will move with even the slightest movement of the crank. UUUUGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I HATE PULLING ENGINES!!!!
 

scf8169

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Messages
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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Okay, now I'm stumped. Rotated the engine til the balancer mark was at 0 degrees on the timing tab. Rotor pointed a little past #1 tower. (That would account for the distributor being set at 8 degrees BTDC. Rotor is pointing 8 degrees past the #1 tower when the piston is at TDC). BTW, you cannot put the rotor on 180 out... it has one flat side. Pulled the timing chain cover. Double roller, no plastic teeth, chain is tight as ****'s hatband. Timing gear marks are BOTH at 12 o'clock, instead of crank at 12, cam at 6. Dowel pin on cam at 9 o'clock. Picture in book shows crank at 12, cam at 6, dowel pin at 3. But here's what's messing me up. If I take the crank around one full turn, the crank mark will be at 12 again, the cam will turn one half of a full turn, and the mark will be at 6, the dowel pin will be at 3, but the rotor will be pointing at the #6 tower, and #6 will be at TDC on it's compression stroke, and #1 will be at TDC of it's exhaust stroke, right? And I know full well this engine will not run with the cam 180 degrees out. Hell, that would bend all the intake valves before it got to a second revolution, wouldn't it? UUGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
 
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Gettinther

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Okay, now I'm stumped. Rotated the engine til the balancer mark was at 0 degrees on the timing tab. Rotor pointed a little past #1 tower. (That would account for the distributor being set at 8 degrees BTDC. Rotor is pointing 8 degrees past the #1 tower when the piston is at TDC). BTW, you cannot put the rotor on 180 out... it has one flat side. Pulled the timing chain cover. Double roller, no plastic teeth, chain is tight as ****'s hatband. Timing gear marks are BOTH at 12 o'clock, instead of crank at 12, cam at 6. Dowel pin on cam at 9 o'clock. Picture in book shows crank at 12, cam at 6, dowel pin at 3. But here's what's messing me up. If I take the crank around one full turn, the crank mark will be at 12 again, the cam will turn one half of a full turn, and the mark will be at 6, the dowel pin will be at 3, but the rotor will be pointing at the #6 tower, and #6 will be at TDC on it's compression stroke, and #1 will be at TDC of it's exhaust stroke, right? And I know full well this engine will not run with the cam 180 degrees out. Hell, that would bend all the intake valves before it got to a second revolution, wouldn't it? UUGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

I was gunna suggest ya check a couple other things while ya had the cover off but NAAAA ya heard enough from me
 

bruceb58

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

If I take the crank around one full turn, the crank mark will be at 12 again, the cam will turn one half of a full turn, and the mark will be at 6, the dowel pin will be at 3, but the rotor will be pointing at the #6 tower, and #6 will be at TDC on it's compression stroke, and #1 will be at TDC of it's exhaust stroke, right? And I know full well this engine will not run with the cam 180 degrees out. Hell, that would bend all the intake valves before it got to a second revolution, wouldn't it? UUGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
Totally normal. You have a 4 stroke engine in case you forgot.
 

scf8169

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Gettinther, I'd love to hear any other suggestions you might have, because I'm all out. I'm this far into it, hell, I've got it nearly stripped to pull. I pulled the valve cover to make sure the valves were closed, and right now, both #1 valves are closed, #3 intake is open, #5 exhaust is open, and #7 exhaust is open. Timing marks on the gears are, as I said before, both at 12 o'clock. Stuck a welding rod in the #1 cylinder when I first lined up the mark on the balancer, before I pulled anything else off, so I know the piston is up at TDC. So, except for the timing gear marks not jiving with anything I've seen in the book, everything else seems to be right. Still haven't found anything that would explain the original reason I started this thread, which is 10 in. of vacuum at all rpm's. Right now I'm thinking I wasted a day pulling the front of the engine down, and still have a vacuum leak somewhere. But, on a positive note, I've got the timing chain cover off, so I can replace the shaft seal and the cover/ oil pan gasket strip, because I noticed some oil leakage on the bottom. Hey, gotta find that half full glass wherever you can, right? lol
 

Gettinther

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Gettinther, I'd love to hear any other suggestions you might have, because I'm all out. I'm this far into it, hell, I've got it nearly stripped to pull. I pulled the valve cover to make sure the valves were closed, and right now, both #1 valves are closed, #3 intake is open, #5 exhaust is open, and #7 exhaust is open. Timing marks on the gears are, as I said before, both at 12 o'clock. Stuck a welding rod in the #1 cylinder when I first lined up the mark on the balancer, before I pulled anything else off, so I know the piston is up at TDC. So, except for the timing gear marks not jiving with anything I've seen in the book, everything else seems to be right. Still haven't found anything that would explain the original reason I started this thread, which is 10 in. of vacuum at all rpm's. Right now I'm thinking I wasted a day pulling the front of the engine down, and still have a vacuum leak somewhere. But, on a positive note, I've got the timing chain cover off, so I can replace the shaft seal and the cover/ oil pan gasket strip, because I noticed some oil leakage on the bottom. Hey, gotta find that half full glass wherever you can, right? lol

" So, except for the timing gear marks not jiving with anything I've seen in the book, everything else seems to be right"
Your timing marks are ok, cam and dist turn @ half speed of crankshaft so that part is fine.

I only ask this because you had timing cover off.
If timing cover is still off,? when #1 is @TDC compression stroke are #6 valves slightly compressed? valve overlap? I believe they should be
Also have you removed the chain , put the cam gear back on and move cam 1/4 turn each direction while watching dist rotor, if the cam moves without the dist moving check the dist gear and or cracked cam I realize you said timing was ok. Not likely a problem but just in case.


Remember I only suggest to check it because you are there and I have seen this problem before.
Are the valves adjusted properly? 0 lash + 3/4 turn
 

scf8169

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Well, I'm eliminating a mechanical timing problem as the source of my low vacuum. Found something on the 'net that explained my timing gear mark confusion. When the cam gear and crank gear marks are both at 12 o' clock, the #1 cylinder IS at TDC of it's compression stroke. When you're assembling the engine, and you line up the marks at cam 6, crank 12, the engine is actually at #6 TDC compression. So, I'm back to square one. Time to pull the intake, and reassemble it with new gaskets. If that don't clear it up, guess it's going to the shop.cam installation.jpg
 

scf8169

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

Well, reinstalled the intake with new gaskets. That raised the vacuum to about 12-13 in. New symptom I didn't notice before- steam coming from the pcv hoses, worse on the starboard side. No water in the oil, but a little milkshake on the dipstick above the oil. WOW.... now I gotta pull this $%#&*^ engine and strip it to the @#$% block. I swear this the most high maintenance beeotch that has ever gotten in my wallet....
 

daydreamer1252

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

I am confused.....Why would an engine that has no vacuum advance have a vacuum port that is between the carb and the distributor? vacuum guage attached at the plug between the carb and distributor

Did I misunderstand? Are we talking about vacuum advance here?

Is the vacuum port clear and open? A clogged port will not give a good reading...

I'll sit back and read now.....
 

bruceb58

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Re: Mercruiser 260 low vacuum

OP doesn't have a vacuum advance distributor on here does he?
 
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