Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Both small outboards are known for having touchy and inconsistent carburetion. This is probably a major factor in your observations, especially considering the Force sat for 3 years. <br /><br />As member Ben Walker said, 50 hours is plenty of break-in. Amsoil is not a special potion, it is just an expensive, hyped, oil. Your Force seems to do better on a less expensive quality TCW3.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

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[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

"True synthetics are too "slippery" and therefore do not allow the engine to actually break in well if at all. Basically, you need a little "dirt"(impurities) found in convetional oils to "hone in" the machining roughness common in most new engines out there."

Care to substantiate this non sense? This is the kind of crap I have seen on Scamsoil salesman's websites.
Before you accuse me of BS you better do a little more research.........

BTW I never reccomended Mobil 1.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

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[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Try googling anything on break in periods. The initial break in has to do with the glazing of the cylinder walls. A more rough cut honing requires dino oil to allow the glazing to happen. On newer car engines with a much finer cross cut honing, synthetics can be used because the glazing process is much more rapid due to the finer cut.

I now quit this thread. Peace.

First off Glazing is what you DONT want to happen when a engine breaks in.d
Google or Wikipedia are not authorities on anything and most of the crap you find on the Net in regards to oils is just that...crap.
Synthetic oils do more slick than their dino counterparts. Again, this is a old wives tail that gets regurgatated over and over. Its simply not true.
I might also point out that many TCW3 oils are actually partially synthetic and that no 2 stroke outboard owners manual I have read says not to break in with syn oils.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Bwalker: tx for info, I will try a tankfull with quicksilver and let you know how it behaved. I am curious to see the result, and will keep you posted on that. It will take a week or so since Force motor is at the shop (my fault) and the Johnson is back on. Only reason for trying Syn oil in that motor was in the hope of lowering smoking when trolling. Did not get good results with the Force 15hp still smokes too much.

Have a great day,

 

[BillP]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

"True synthetics are too "slippery" and therefore do not allow the engine to actually break in well if at all. Basically, you need a little "dirt"(impurities) found in convetional oils to "hone in" the machining roughness common in most new engines out there."

Care to this non sense? This is the kind of crap I have seen on Scamsoil salesman's websites.
Before you accuse me of BS you better do a little more research.........

BTW I never reccomended Mobil 1.

BWalker, Maybe he isn't the one who needs to do more research. Here's something to substantiate the no synthetic break in claim...

Kohler's engine warranty says synthetics are NOT to be used the first 50 hrs. They state (in writing) it prevents rings from seating. I spoke with a Kohler commercial engine mechanic who said glazing with synthetic is a real problem and once the walls are glazed it requires engine takedown.

I can post other mfgs that officially say the same but don't care to go there.

:}

 

[tommays]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I think we need to stick with 2 stroke or 4 stroke outboards

I am not sure were a Kohler industral motor falls in this

tommays

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I admit I was full of hooey on the "glazing" thing having confused it in my mind with "honing and wearing in " an engine. My bad.

However forTommays and other people's sake, here's something more pertintent to actual oils.

http://www.redlineoil.com/tech_faq.asp


(Redline is a manufacturer of high end synthetic engine oils.)


Can I break-in my engine on Red Line Oil?

We recommend using petroleum 10w30 motor oil on break in to ensure proper piston ring seating. If you allow 1500 to 2000 miles in a street engine or 20 to 30 minutes on the dyno at low rpm, the rings will have had sufficient time to seat and the high initial break-in wear will have occurred.

...ok so I lied. Now I quit the thread...maybe...

 

[BillP]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I think we need to stick with 2 stroke or 4 stroke outboards

I am not sure were a Kohler industral motor falls in this

tommays

Ok, forget Kohler gas lawn tractor engines...Auto engines were used as an example earlier to debunk the "myth" of break with synthetics. I'll follow that with a response that says it isn't a myth.

Here's a paste from a current GM factory crate engine installation manual that clearly states their position on sythetics for break in...it isn't BS.

======================================
Engine Oil
....10w30 weight engine oil for normal driving conditions. If you are towing or hauling heavy loads during the summer months, you can use 15w40 or 30w engine oil. Do not use synthetic engine oil with this engine until after you have not only completed the initial engine break-in procedure (this will be discussed later) but also the 2,000 mile break-in period. Using synthetic engine oils prematurely will prevent or hinder your engine's break-in leaving the piston rings not seated properly and a number of other problems.

4) Do not use synthetic oils during cam gear to distributor gear break-in. You should flush the synthetic oil from your engine if you have been using it then replace it with 30 or multi-viscosity weight oil (i.e. 30W or 10W-30). This grade of oil will provide the best break-in environment over other heavier or lighter engine oils. If you do not feel comfortable with this grade of oil due to weather conditions during the break-in period and you must use a heavier oil, then you may consider extending the break-in time to up to 2 oil change cycles but still checking the gear at the end of the first oil change cycle. Unless the oil is a real heavy grade, you probably won't need to worry about extending the break-in period. Use of synthetic oil during break-in should not even be considered as well as engine additives that claim to reduce friction in your engine.

======================================
The crate engine warranty says nothing about synthetic but says documentation is required to prove you followed their specifications. Autos that come factory fresh with synthetic are probably 95% broken in on the bench before the motor is installed. I saw a GM promo documentary showing the break in process so it IS done but they didn't day which cars the engines were for.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Amsoil, Redline, Kohler, GM...they don't know squat!?? Right? C'mon.

 

[Booner]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

WOW 50 hours on a FORCE its about shot now! you beter run the good stuff maybee you will make 100 hours before the bone yard.d

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Amsoil, Redline, Kohler, GM...they don't know squat!?? Right? C'mon.

I tend to agree is non of the above mentioned make two stroke outboards!d
BTW be sure to tell Evinrude, Mercury and Yamaha that their engines will never break in when you use 2M, Premium Plus, or xd-50,100 in them as they are all partially synthetic or full synthetic oils.......

 

[moderator1]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Bwalker, your posts are very biased and un-educated, period.
I have an XP 150 that I rebuilt (1 of many) and ran XD-30 for about 35 hours which "might" be enough time to say it's broken in....I went to XD-50 for 120 hours.
One day while visiting with the OMC Gurus (one of them has raced for 20+ years) and we were discusing oil...now, 2 of these guys used to work for OMC, now they are with BRP. anyway, they "Highly" recommended I run either XD-100, or Amsoil HPI. I chose the HPI because it's cheaper.
I have almost 400 hours on the Amsoil HPI at RPM's above 6500 at times......beautiful piston tops, clean exhaust, and zero problems with ANYTHING.
The best part of all is I pre-mix and the first tank of amsoil showed just over 100RPM higher than anything I had run before. I abuse this engine at way over manufacturers specs every time I go out, and, by the way, this engine was just put on the water 13 months ago....I run more in a year than most run in 10yrs.
The Amsoil works quite well and will stand up and surpass any dino oil out there.
In the begining of my post, this is what I would recommend for break-in...allow about 30-35hrs, double oil before going to any other ratio or brand of oil.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

More unsubstantiated claims!
I also happen to know a employee of BRP. One that sits on the NMMA TCW3 commitiee at that. So what?
FWIW I have about 250 hours aon a Yam 60 that has used 2M since new and its spotless as well and on the original plugs. I know this because I had to replace a exhaut gasket and got to take a peak inside at that time.
I also have four merc 25's that have been absolutley abused since being bought 5 years ago that havent missed a beat. They have been run on Esso TCW3, Merc premium plus and now Yamalube 2m. I estimate that these motors have over 1800 hours a piece on them. No de carbs and plugs about once per year, although I have went for two years before replacement once because I forgot to replace them. No plugs ever fouled.
I also tested HPI and Yamalube 2M in brand new Yamaha 30's. Both motors had nearly identical operating conditions and hours operated. The motor ran on 2m was cleaner internaly, and the exhaust of the 2M motor didnt smell as foul as the HPI ran motor. Smoke was about equal.
To say I have a idea how these oils perform is a under statement. the commercial operation I run puts many hours on our motors so I have the oportunity to look at oils long term, which many do not have. In my expiereance cheap ol Esso works as good as anything albeit with slightly more smoke and slightly dirtier internals. I am mostly using Yammi 2M because I can get it cheap. Only a few more dollars per 4Lx4 case.
Despite the price disparity between HPI and 2M I would use HPI if it performed better. It simply does not, so I wont use it.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

You do not use a synthetic for break-in because it does lubricate almost too well. You want the break-in time to be as little as possible...At least the manufacturers do...So they do not recommend a synthetic during that time. Engine manufacturers care about warranty claims and if their research shows that synthetic use during break-in is a problem why would you want to use synthetic?

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

You do not use a synthetic for break-in because it does lubricate almost too well. You want the break-in time to be as little as possible...At least the manufacturers do...So they do not recommend a synthetic during that time. Engine manufacturers care about warranty claims and if their research shows that synthetic use during break-in is a problem why would you want to use synthetic?

More old wives tales. Synthetic oils do not "lube" better in the way your alluding to IE higher film strength, slicker, etc. What they do do is resist oxidation longer, decompose cleaner, and produce less smoke/ carbon, although the additive package has a great influeance on this as well.

Which MFG would that be? The Yamaha outboard manuaI have in fornt of me makes no mention of it. Why would the OEMs sell synthetic blend and synthetic oils if that couldnt be used in new motors?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Honda, Suzuki, Nissan, Tohatsu, Yamaha and Mercury do NOT recommend synthetic oil during break-in of 4-stroke engines. As to an old wives tale...Maybe. But I think I will side with the engine manufactuers over the oil manufacturers. I also do not put too much faith in what one individual's experience may be. I've seen the insides of more outboards than a lot of people have seen boats on the water. There are often huge differences in the internals of an engine that has been run on one brand or another brand. Although, in the last ten years all oil brands have all improved so as to negate some of the differences of the past.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Honda, Suzuki, Nissan, Tohatsu, Yamaha and Mercury do NOT recommend synthetic oil during break-in of 4-stroke engines.

Last time I checked we were discussing two stroke outboards......
I will give you a hint. mer or Yamaha doesnt reccomend against it... They even market syn blend oils.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Well well ... someone else (moderator1) but me found his outboard to have xtra Rpm when using Amsoil HPI (or synthetic) ...

Cheers y'awl