Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Me thinks that JB ran out of popcornd

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Me thinks that JB ran out of popcorn d

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

JB (moderator) Sorry this forum turned sour. I only meant to compare different results with 2 different motors using same sync oil, hoping to have explanations as feedback.


Regards

Ps You may close this forum is you wish.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

It is a fair question as to why manufacturers offer a synthetic oil and yet will not recommend a synthetic oil for break-in. And the answer is....Different engine designs have different "near-perfect" oils. As I stated earlier, DFI's [colour=null]require[/colour] a syntheitc or synthetic blend. Pre-mix engines do not. Most engine manufactuers that have a synthetic oil also offer a dino oil as well. Some manufacturers offer only a blend( sort of a best or worse of both approach).

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

pecheux, no need to close this...it's pretty tame compared to some, and there IS some useful info, so, unless another mod feels other-wise, it stays open for now.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

It is a fair question as to why manufacturers offer a synthetic oil and yet will not recommend a synthetic oil for break-in.

Which manufactures would that be? Yamaha and Merc make no mention of it in their owners manuals. I am tlaking two stroke outboards here. Not suzuki outboards or Kohler lawnmower engines.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

bwalker: niiiccce fish Beautifull coutryside also,

Enjoy,

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

pecheux, no need to close this...it's pretty tame compared to some, and there IS some useful info, so, unless another mod feels other-wise, it stays open for now.

Besides, I havn`t found it necesary yet to turn things upside down! I havn`t been poofed for quite some time.:devil::devil::devil:

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Bwalker you have answered your own question. Neither Mercury or Yamaha recommend the use of synthetic oil for break-in of a pre-mix or standard oil injection engine. I think where you ar going astray in this is the fact that most manufacturers do not say, in big Scarlet Letters, do not use syntheic oil for break-in. Absence of of a warning not to use it does not mean that it is should be used. I know that Yamaha, Suzuki and Tohatsu/Nissan service reps will all tell you that you should not use a synthetic for break-in. Not because it's bad...Only because it extends the break in time and it's hard to get people to follow the break-in schedule to begin with.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Bwalker you have answered your own question. Neither Mercury or Yamaha recommend the use of synthetic oil for break-in of a pre-mix or standard oil injection engine. I think where you ar going astray in this is the fact that most manufacturers do not say, in big Scarlet Letters, do not use syntheic oil for break-in. Absence of of a warning not to use it does not mean that it is should be used. I know that Yamaha, Suzuki and Tohatsu/Nissan service reps will all tell you that you should not use a synthetic for break-in. Not because it's bad...Only because it extends the break in time and it's hard to get people to follow the break-in schedule to begin with.

If it was detrimental they would say not to use synthetic oils for break in. They say nothing of the sort and instead market synthetic oils.
I have Yamaha Canada paying me a visit next Monday. They come out yearly with a couple techs from Japan as well as the local service and sales rep. We will see what they say.
BTW one sure way to extend break in is to follow the MFG break in schedule. To properly break in a motor must be loaded heavily. Putzing around at half throttle isnt going to get it done.
When we buy new outboards they are mounted on the boats and ran like they normaly would, except that the first tank of fuel is mixed at 25:1. I have never had a issue with a motor not making full power, glazing issues, or blow by. I aslo know of no other camp that breaks in motors they way the factories suggest and we get plenty of life out of them. In fact I have never had to get rid of a motor because the engine was wore out. Typicly the motor outlasts the rest of the outboard.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Interesting...as to not mention the corp that done the block work on my 200, I will leave their name out, but they build/rebuild some of the most powerful outboards in the industry. Now, I'm talking rebuild here, not factory new, but even tighter clearances.
The recommended break-in I have been told to follow, and have been, is Idle for the first 5-6hrs in the tank, no-load. The reason for this is quite simple....with a tight engine, and running at Idle, the temp comes up, reaches max, the T-stats open and the engine cools back down. This is temp-cycling and has worked well for me..this is in older, carbed 2-strokes, so the rules don't apply to DFI's, I don't "think".

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I've explained it...Patiently. If you refuse to believe then the fault must me mine for not explaining it in a way so as to make it clear... Or your dense. Lets just assume I'm not explaining it well and I will just give up.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

You have explained nothign other than some supposed service reps OPPINION. You have provided no conclusive proof that Merc, Yamaha or BRP forbid the use of synthetic two stroke oils for break in.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Interesting...as to not mention the corp that done the block work on my 200, I will leave their name out, but they build/rebuild some of the most powerful outboards in the industry. Now, I'm talking rebuild here, not factory new, but even tighter clearances.
The recommended break-in I have been told to follow, and have been, is Idle for the first 5-6hrs in the tank, no-load. The reason for this is quite simple....with a tight engine, and running at Idle, the temp comes up, reaches max, the T-stats open and the engine cools back down. This is temp-cycling and has worked well for me..this is in older, carbed 2-strokes, so the rules don't apply to DFI's, I don't "think".

When you think about what happens when a two stroke engine breaks in its pretty apparent why letting a engine idle for 5-6 hours ios a bad idea and counter productive.
Letting a engine warm up properly is always a good idea.

 

[BillP]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Fish camp experience evidently has little to do with the rest of the world when glazing is concerned. Experienced motorheads on every corner of the planet know glazing isn't a "myth" or "BS" with synthetic for break in. If you listen to them there is no debate on sythetic glazing reality. It just depends on the motor mfg whether a concern or not.

One common denominator on glazing is the Nikasil process...that puts certain Kawasakis, BMW mcys and Kohler motors at the top. BMW and Kohler say in writing that synthetic break in won't let the rings seat. I didn't check Kawasaki specs. GM crate engines are not Nikasil and the factory still says don't use synthetic for break in.

Am I am not doubting that the same old stuff in regards to synthetics is regurjatated over and over by people who SHOULD know better. The fact of the matter is they do not and the same blanket statements, myths and BS are passed over and over.
Kawasaki does not use nicicsil in theior two strokes, but rather a plating made up of chrome and a few other elements. Definatly not Nicisil. Dito with Kohler as they are mostly cast iron lined.
While this issue is being thrown around the question needs to be asked what exactly is a synthetic? Will a BMW engine properly break in on Castrol synthetic? The reason I ask is because Castrol synthetics are not really synthetics at all, but rather very highly refinded mineral oils. I suppose because its labeled synthetic its automaticly bad?
What synthetics are the problem in regards to breakin? Alkalayted napthalenes, esters of various sorts, PIB's, PAO's? UHVI mineral oils(called syn thetics)? Which ones are the problems? Clear as mud? You bet.
One question that keeps getting side stepped by my detracttors is: if synthetics are bad for break in, cause glazing, etc why do Yamaha, BRP and Merc all sell oils for normal use(including new break in) that contain synthetic base oils? I am not talking about a Kohler, or a BMW!
As for me personaly I believe synthetics are of some value in certain applications but I do not use them in my personal boats or in business as they have several issues that dont jive well with my applications. Mainly price and corrosion protection. I saw this lest I get accused of being a Amsoil zealot!

Wow, break out more popcorn...are you having crow?Get a grip. Spend 10 minutes on Google and learn about what you speak of instead of saying people are posting myths and BS.

About Kawasaki 2 strokes...I owned a Kawaski 2 stroke with Nikasil cyls...air cooled 38hp twin snowmobile engine with pumper carb. Do some homework on Kohler...they use Nikasil and advertise it as one of their engine options.

Anyway, nobody is side stepping so don't try to muddy the water by suggesting others aren't informed and up to date. A little research will show you every motor type between a 2 stroke weed whacker to Jaguar autos, to aircraft, to NASCAR series engines are running Nikasil. All of them says don't use synthetic for break in. Most the ones that DON'T use Nikasil say don't break in with synthetic either. Regardless, some engines are ok with a synthetic for break in right off the showroom floor and others aren't. Info about glazing isn't "old stuff" and the problem isn't 2 stroke or 4 stroke specific. Anyone posting differently could lead the unknowing astray and into damaging a motor by ignoring a critical break in procedure.

Also, I spoke with an engine rep today who owns a warranty repair shop (MD Automotive Inc) for Jasper and Autozone crate engines He said the factory engines have a special synthetic blend break in oil that isn't the ordinary synthetic that John Q. Public buys at wallyworld. Break in oil is critical these days and isn't to be substituted with wallyworld synthetic. Seems to make me think they are using petroleum or mineral based oil for break in.

:}

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Yamaha and Merc dont say to not use synthetic so your ascertation is wrong.
As for Kawi. I was speaking of there two cycle motor cycles. Since they havent produced snowmobiles in 20 years or more I didnt bring them up. Is a 20+ year old engine germain to this discussion?
Answer two simple questions: If synthetics are bad for break in why do BRP,Merc and Yamaha not forbid the use of them during break in? Why do they market oils that are synthetic?
I suspect you will continue to dodge these question as its easier to be sheeple than to think on ones own and explore ideas that are differant form the old wives tales that have been kicked around for ages.8)

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

By bwalker: "When you think about what happens when a two stroke engine breaks in its pretty apparent why letting a engine idle for 5-6 hours ios a bad idea and counter productive.
Letting a engine warm up properly is always a good idea."
These people consist of one design tach from BRP, an "X" OMC guru/employee, and the other is a wiseco piston rep and Raced for many years himself....
I will follow their directions to the "T".
And, yes, I always allow warm-up time...can YOU tell me why this is important? Test question...

 

[BillP]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Yamaha and Merc dont say to not use synthetic so your ascertation is wrong.
As for Kawi. I was speaking of there two cycle motor cycles. Since they havent produced snowmobiles in 20 years or more I didnt bring them up. Is a 20+ year old engine germain to this discussion?
Answer two simple questions: If synthetics are bad for break in why do BRP,Merc and Yamaha not forbid the use of them during break in? Why do they market oils that are synthetic?
I suspect you will continue to dodge these question as its easier to be sheeple than to think on ones own and explore ideas that are differant form the old wives tales that have been kicked around for ages.8)

:}
You are showing a trend of confusing fiction from facts here dude. The Kawasaki 2 stroke "snowmobile" engine was being sold for ultralight aircraft yrs later...and yes, contrary to your posts, they had Nikasil, just like Kohler. Less than 10 yrs ago they were being sold new. I bought one new, broke it in on pet oil and flew behind it.

Yet again and contrary to your earlier comment about certified aircraft engines...CURRENT and PAST production piston engine mfgs state clearly NOT to use synthetic for break in and list the specific engines this applies. All you need to do is check their web sites to confirm these facts from your fiction.

Nobody else is dodging anything. What part of earlier posts is confusing you? Some mfgs say not to use synthetic and others (BRP, Merc, Yamaha) say nothing. If they say nothing then use whatever oil meets their spec and don't worry about it...but I forgot, you don't follow Yamaha break in specs because you and your buds know better. Do you tell the Yamaha reps that? Regardless, in the big picture more motor mfgs and mechanics on the planet say not to use synthetic for break in than ones who say it doesn't matter.


:}

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

We are talking about outboards here not ultralights, locomotives or any other type of engine.
No outboard MFG forbids the use of synthetic two stroke oils for break in and most market them. End of story.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

As for the break in. When buy motors its usually in btaches of 15 or more. I simply do not have the time, nor manpower to break them in before I hand them to customers. I do mix the first tank at 25:1 per Yamaha's instructions.This is standard operating procedure in the industry and our motor longetivity hasnt been effected by this one bit. Typicaly the motor is the last thing you worry about wearing out.