Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

[oin

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

And, as for using, or not using synthetic for break-in, in relation to TC-W3, most of the manufacturers TOP oils are not TC-W3 rated, so where does that leave us?

The OEM offered syn oils like XD-100 are not certified becasue they are intended for a differant application that requires a differant formulation. I have heard that in the near future there will be a NMMA standard for DI engine oils.

As for film strength. Film strength is a function of viscosity. The higher the viscosity the higher the film strength.
As for racing applications. Many do not use 100% synthetic oils. One of the best cart racing oils going is Phillips Xamax which is a synthetic blend. Yamalube 2R has a huge following amongst road racers and motocorossers.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I think I'll use the "Rodbolt" approach and say everyone use synthetic for break-in.....we need more work in the shop anyway. No, I'm not talking new design....I'm talking low-time, older conventional 2-strokes and rebuilt carbed 2-strokes.

The standards used for oil certification include using such outboards as a Mercury Model 15 carbureted 2-cylinder with a new test powerhead (1987-1989 vintage) , an OMC 40 hp 2-cylinder, twin carbureted model J40ECC or E40ECC with new test power head, an OMC 70 hp 3-cylinder tripple carbureted model J70ELEIE, or E70ELEIE with new test powerhead, and so on.

Again, testing includes using the cadidate oil for engine break-in, whether it is synthetic or not.

You seem to be implying that using a synthetic oil for 2-stroke outboard break-in will result in shop repairs. Unfortunately actual testing using established standards and controls (evaluating ring sticking, varnish, deposits, wear, performance, etc) does not support that opinion.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

TheOilDoc writes: The term "compatible" has nothing to do with actually meeting TC-W3, and I would not recommend using a non-TC-W3 certified oil where one is specified by the manufacturer of the outboard.
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TheOilDoc: Then would this mean YOU would not recommend the usage of Amsoil HPI synthetic since it says tc-w3 COMPATIBLE on the can ... and NOT tc-w3 certified ?

To be followed .... lol

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

That is correct.

 

[tommays]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

So there NOT useing any big really high performance motors to test the oil ?


Tommays

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

TheOilDoc: Then would this mean YOU would not recommend the usage of Amsoil HPI synthetic since it says tc-w3 COMPATIBLE on the can ... and NOT tc-w3 certified ?

That is correct.
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TheOilDoc: Then would that mean thef Amsoil HPI synthetic oil FAILED the lab test ????

(the devil made me ask) :devil:

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

So there NOT useing any big really high performance motors to test the oil ?

The performance of any candidate TC-W3 oil can easily be evaluated by using the standards, procedures, and test equipment (outboards) established by the NMMA. Smaller outboards are certainly susceptible to the same (or worse) operating rigors of larger outboards.

The performance of an oil is not dependent on engine displacement size. It would not be practical for the NMMA to test candidate oils in every size and brand of outboard. Replacing powerheads is part of the certification procedure, and therefore using larger displacement engines is not cost effective. High-performance engines are specialty applications, and again using them as standardized disposable test equipment is not practical or representative. The object is to draw baseline standards and procedures that can be used for all outboards where manufacturers require TC-W3 oils.

With the exception of modern high pressure injection 2-stroke outboards, not much has changed for the demands of a TC-W3 oil. The newer fuel injected high-performance 2-strokes inherently have higher cylinder temperatures, less oil delivery, and more strict emission requirements. The oil necessary for their dependable operation is not necessarily adequate for engines where the manufacturer's recommend TC-W3. That is why the NMMA is investigating a separate oil specification for those outboards.

BTW, even where 4-stroke FC-W oils are concerned, the largest displacement test engine is 115 HP (even though these FC-W oils are recommended in large V-8 marine applications).

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Then would that mean thef Amsoil HPI synthetic oil FAILED the lab test ????

Not necessarily. It simply may not have been tested, possibly because the manufacturer knew it would not "meet" or exceed the requirements. After all, HPI and TC-W3 oils perform differently. Lack of TC-W3 certification is not to say it's a "bad" oil. Only that there is no way to know if it meets the TC-W3 standards that your outboard recommends.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

HPI says it can be used for both DFI and TCW3 applications which tells me there is a possibility it wouldnt not pass the TCW3 standard. This is making the ASSumption that the formulation is indeed DFI compatable.
I tested HPI VS. Yamalube 2M in new and identical 30hp Yamahas. I wasnt very impressed with HPI as it actually showed more deposits and odor than 2M.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Bwalker: unfortunatly Amsoil was the only synthetic oil available in my area, so I cannot compare apples with apples. I would have like to try Penzoil synt 2 cycle.

Tx for the feedback

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

GENTLEMENT ... HOLD YOUR FIRE ...

I misread the label on the Amsoil HPI can regarding the word compatible.

What it does say is (reading the can) Recommended for TC-W3 and API-TC applications as injector oil or as 50:1 premix. Use in all 2 cycle outboard motors.

Compatible with mineral and synthetic TC-W3 type two-cycle oils, however mixing 2 cycle oils should be minimized. (this is where I made an eye typo error)

My oppologies to all online Amsoil dealers for putting down your product's TC-W3 capabilities ... and my appologies to all those that dislike Amsoil products for giving you false joys ... LOL

(the show must go on ... LOL)

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

For the oil to meet or exceed the TC-W3 specification the container's label should carry the NMMA's TC-W3® symbol and a TC-W3 registration number.

Unfortunately "recommendations" by the oil marketer are not certifications.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

TheOilDoc writes: Unfortunately "recommendations" by the oil marketer are not certifications
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I partialy agree with you on this statement. However I wonder if this TC-W3 certification is not just a way for oil manfacturers to pay royalties.

Reson why I suspect that is this: If Amsoil can be the first one to produce an oil that can lubricate a high Rpm jet engine ... how could they produce a 2 cycles oil that would not be good enough to meet the TC-W3 standard.

Could it be possible that Amsoil management would be hard-headed enough to NOT want to pay royalties to whoever issues the TC-W3 certification based on their belief that their 2 cycle oil is superior to all others to start with.

Now that I wrote all this it comes to my mind that
'2 wrongs dont equal 1 right' LOL

Let the game begin ... LOL

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

TheOilDoc writes: Unfortunately "recommendations" by the oil marketer are not certifications
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I partialy agree with you on this statement. However I wonder if this TC-W3 certification is not just a way for oil manfacturers to pay royalties.

Reson why I suspect that is this: If Amsoil can be the first one to produce an oil that can lubricate a high Rpm jet engine ... how could they produce a 2 cycles oil that would not be good enough to meet the TC-W3 standard.

Could it be possible that Amsoil management would be hard-headed enough to NOT want to pay royalties to whoever issues the TC-W3 certification based on their belief that their 2 cycle oil is superior to all others to start with.

Now that I wrote all this it comes to my mind that
'2 wrongs dont equal 1 right' LOL

Let the game begin ... LOL

Amsoil wasnt the first one to produce synthetic oil for jet engines. The Germans did it during WW-2, which is before Scamsoil even existed. Amsoil doesnt produce oil anyways as they are not a refiner.
The part on the label that says "for use in all two cycles" is misleading and flat out wrong.
Its very likely that Amsoil HPI isnt certified because their formulations will not pass the TCW3 test regime.
Amsoil clearly doesnt object to certification and its associated costs as some of their automotive oils are API certified. Their automoitve oils that are not certfied WILL NOT pass API certification because of some formulation limits on certain compounds.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

I think you guys have all posted some good info here.
I've known HPI is not TC-W3 rated, but Amsoil came highly recommended years ago, and not from a dealer.
We've been running it in our Artic Cat sleds for about 3-4 years now with no issues, and up untill 2 years ago, I never ran a straight synthetic in my outboards.
In my souped 200, I started with XD-25/30, then went to Ficht-Ram (XD-50), which I ran also in my 115 for about 700 hours before I sold the engine.
I'm getting close to 600hrs now on the 200, with somewhere between 400-500hrs of that on HPI. It's been very trouble-free and very clean inside.
Considering I've ran at 6500RPM+ for extended periods of time with no problems, I don't see that it has caused any problems..
I don't know why they don't get it certified....I don't think it's because it won't pass, I don't know..I would like to know the truth to that because I really don't want to run what I thought to be "better" than conventional oil.
No need to get into a situation of who knows best, or even argue about it for that matter.
Bwalker, I'm glad TheOilDoc backs you up....that tells me a bit about what you know...I trust Doc's comments.
Times have changed and so have the oils of modern day.....this gets VERY confusing when an Outboard engine Design Engineer tells me to use HPI in my particular engine, of which he had his hands in the process of designing at that time, and then someone else says, "Don't do it"...
I seen a powerhead failure in 2004 using HPI, yet they could not prove the cause of the failure, they replaced the powerhead. That in itself gave me the confidence to run the HPI and feel good about it.
Maybe I've been one of the lucky ones...you sure have me wondering....
Excellent info guys, and thanks for sharing...

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in


Your using HPI in your sleds?

 

[pecheux]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

walleyehed writes: I seen a powerhead failure in 2004 using HPI, yet they could not prove the cause of the failure, they replaced the powerhead. That in itself gave me the confidence to run the HPI and feel good about it.
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Walley, that by itself is a VERY convincing gesture of a company that would leads to beleve produces an excellent oil ... Tc-W3 certified or not ...

I have never heard of any other brand named oil that would cover such repairs ...

Have a great day,

PS: I just dropped in my ex Omc dealer that is now a Merc dealer ... and guess what .... a bottle of Omc HPI oil was still on the shelf ... and guess what ? bottle is identical (same odd & unique shape) as the Amsoil HPI with same things written on the label, and same odd color (fade blue) ... COINCIDENCE ??? we will never know !!! LOL

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

Europeans have used synthetic lubricants in their vehicles for years. They change oil far less often than us and today there are high performance engines (Corvette and BMW) that are shipped from the factory with synthetic oil. In the early days of synthetic oils, rust preventatives were lacking and I've seen snowmobile and outboard crankshafts that were so rusty you could hardly identify them Those days are long gone. Could it be that the manufacturers wanted to sell "their" oil so they mandated that no other will do (at least during break-in). I use both.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Mfg oil vs Synthetic for breaking in

walleyehed writes: I seen a powerhead failure in 2004 using HPI, yet they could not prove the cause of the failure, they replaced the powerhead. That in itself gave me the confidence to run the HPI and feel good about it.
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Walley, that by itself is a VERY convincing gesture of a company that would leads to beleve produces an excellent oil ... Tc-W3 certified or not ...

I have never heard of any other brand named oil that would cover such repairs ...

Have a great day,

PS: I just dropped in my ex Omc dealer that is now a Merc dealer ... and guess what .... a bottle of Omc HPI oil was still on the shelf ... and guess what ? bottle is identical (same odd & unique shape) as the Amsoil HPI with same things written on the label, and same odd color (fade blue) ... COINCIDENCE ??? we will never know !!! LOL

If I had a powerhead failure that I thought was caused by the lubricant you can be dang sure I wouldnt use the stuff again. Warranty or not.
Amsoil doesnt not produce oil for ANY OEM.