Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Daselbee, what are your thoughts, going to try to go to boat tonight?

Thanks,
Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

OK, I have reached a decision in my own mind as to what is wrong.

I went to a known good running engine, and took the same measurements that Coastal did. They results are below.


TIMER BASE: (Timer base 4 pin connectors DISCONNECTED from the pack.)
Voltages measured at starter speed.

Coastal's tests: --> Daselbee's tests

Port Side

green wire @2.7 vdc --> 2.5 vdc
white wire @ 1.81 vdc --> 1.0 vdc
blue wire @ 2.65 vdc --> 2.2 vdc
purple @ 3.17 vdc --> 2.0 vdc

Starboard Side

green wire @1.05 vdc --> 1.2 vdc
Black/white @ 0 vdc --> 0 vdc
blue wire @ 1.03 vdc --> 1.2 vdc
purple @ .91 vdc --> 1.2 vdc


Notice how the starboard side on both engines is very very close to the same....
1.0vdc.

Why the difference in the port side? Because the white wire is floating higher than 0volts on both our engines. His floats at 1.8 vdc, mine floats at 1.0 vdc.
This is completely expected, because the timer base is disconnected from the powerpack circuitry, and it was not designed to be electrically tested that way, and you get erratic results....BUT!!!!

Notice what happens when you SUBTRACT the float voltage from the green, purple, and blue wire voltages!!!! on both our test readings.

green purple blue

His: 2.7 - 1.8 = .9 and 3.1 - 1.8 = 1.3 and 2.6 - 1.8 = .8

DAS: 2.5 - 1.0 = 1.5 and 2.0 - 1.0 = 1.0 and 2.2 - 1.0 = 1.2

Notice how they too all settle in around 1.0 vdc, just like the starboard side.

This is why I am pretty much CONVINCED that his timer base is OK, and the only problem he has is the powerpack.

I know...it is not in the book...but I think this a valid way to analyze his test results.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

You are the man, I need your address so I can send you a thank you properly. I trully appreciate the extra efforts you have taken here, THANK YOU!

In regards to my test results, I re-did the tests last night per the book and got different readings...

I tested the TIMER BASE COIL per manual 3-46, both sides had 0V to ground which is what it is supposed to be. I then tested all the connectors on each side per book, here are the results:

PORT Side:
Green C - .87
White D - N/A
Blue A - .77
Purple B - 1.32

STARBOARD Side:
Green C - 0
Black/White - N/A
Blue A - .91
Purple B - .87

Since I have one reading that is less than .2vdc, the book says to do a Sensor Coil Ohmmeter Test but I need to make up some special jumper wires first so I was unable to do this tonight, maybe tomorrow.

What do you think now, strange how the starboard side of the timer base had a 0 reading when it is the port side that has low voltage? Actually, I believe someone had previously told me that a bad wire on one side will effect the other side on this motor, is that true??? Or should I just replace the pack? If I go with a new CDI pack, should I also change the coils to CDI? I believe there is a hairline crack around the bolt hole of coil #2, maybe someone previously tightened it up too much, could this cause a pack to go bad?

What to do now,
Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Also, when doing the above tests, I absolutely verified which timer base wire corresponds to which cylinder.

I am posting these results of testing on a 90s era V6 looper using powerpack numbers 584037 and 586212.

I have a Stevens breakout box. Those of you that don't know what a breakout box is, it is a test tool that allows you to switch each wire on or off individually, without disconnecting the rubber connectors or pulling single pins out in order to disable a circuit.

I connected the breakout box to the four lead timer base rubber boots, first the port side, then the starboard side.

When engine at starter speed, and a spark gap tester installed on #2 plug wire, if I switched the "A" terminal switch on the breakout box to the "off" position, spark immediately stopped....switch back to "on" and spark returned.

I did this for all 6 cylinders, and here is the correlation:
TB equals "Timer Base" below.

Port side

#2 cylinder----->TB connector A---------> TB color blue
#4 cylinder----->TB connector B---------> TB color purple
#6 cylinder----->TB connector C---------> TB color green
N/A------------> TB connector D---------> TB color white

Starboard side

#1 cylinder----->TB connector A---------> TB color blue
#3 cylinder----->TB connector B---------> TB color purple
#5 cylinder----->TB connector C---------> TB color green
N/A------------>TB connector D---------> TB color black/white

An open on any single wire in the timer base connectors (port and starboard) will kill the associated cylinder's spark .

The white wire (I think) is the timer base ground when connected, and the black/white wire is the timer base voltage source (about 10vdc) when connected.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Coastal...you are getting different results because (I think) the floating voltages on and around the pack and timerbase are changing around on you from day to day. You never know what a circuit will do when it is disconnected from it's normal operating configuration. and this boat is in the water, galvanic action is going on....you just can't tell. But our readings are essentially the same.....after you subtract that float voltage on pin "D"....

My best bet is that your pack is bad, and your timer base is good.

Something does bother me....starboard side green terminal "C"...sitting at zero volts. That should kill #5 cylinder....not 2 or 6.

I am absolutley sure of that....I just spent an hour verifying which wire triggered which cylinder. I am positive.

I REALLY REALLY want to know the outcome!!!!

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

My best bet is that your pack is bad, and your timer base is good.

Something does bother me....starboard side green terminal "C"...sitting at zero volts. That should kill #5 cylinder....not 2 or 6.

Coastal....that starboard side green wire terminal "C"....that wasn't reading zero the very first time you took measurements and posted the results....
What happened? I just did a comparison with my engine using those first voltage readings you posted....now they are significantly different....

Put your spark gap tester on #5 and see if you still have spark.

That one is really bothering me. All the other timer base voltages look good.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Also, on another note, the tach has recently begun to act up, it is floating above 0 when off but does appear to work when running? I heard that when your rectifier begins to fail, the tach shows faults and rectifiers mess up stators, etc...???

That's normal. The instant the key is switched to "on", the tach zeros out.
Try it.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

I know, the starboard timer base 0 reading on the #5 cylinder bothers me too. I will double check the spark and coil input again. However, the first time I tested the timer base I did not unplug both (port & starboard) timer base connectors, I did one at a time, after reading the book I re-did the test and those are the values I reposted. I figured the first test with only one side disconnected is useless. The book says if you get any values less than .2 vdc, to go to the Ohm test. Also, someone told me that a bad wire on the timer base can affect the opposite side, do you think there is any truth to that? What would happen if I switched sides to prove it out?

What do you think I should do?

Thanks,
Pete

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Just got back from testing spark on #5, not only does this cylinder spark a nice blue streak at 7/16", but so does #2 & #6, so I am puzzled now, decided to start her up and check coil input from pack, all cyliners, I mean ALL cylinders were in the 180 VDC range in idle??? I then hooked up the timing light and ALL cylinders except #2 blinked a nice steady beam, #2 looked like it missed here and there. If you recall, last time #6 was dead and #2 was weak?

I give, something is wacky here, will replace the pack, question is, since I do not know what messed up the pack and since I will buy the CDI pack, should I change out all the coils to CDI and buy new plugs while I am at it or is that all just over kill.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[jonesg]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Its turned into quite a saga for you,
I think you have the optical ignition system,?

if so , the CDI troubleshootin directions are simpler to follow, I found this better than my OEM manual.
http://www.maxrules.com/fixomcoisignition.html

My symptoms were weak spark on port side (1994 150hp v6), considering 3 coils wouldn't be likely to fail on the same side at the same time I replaced the powerpack and it worked. Its a guess but its very often a good guess.

You have the DVA so you can verify beforehand, I was getting different readings every time I tested the pack, gave up and bought a sierra cheapo powerpack. Next time I'd go with the CDI pack.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Does anyone know for sure if I have an Optical Ignition on my 1994 Johnson 225 (J225TXER-K).

OMC 60 DEGREE V6 OPTICAL IGNITION TIPS
A guide to troubleshooting the Johnson/Evinrude
60 Degree V6 Optical ignition (OIS 2000) 1991-2003 model years.

Thanks, Pete

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ordering a new CDI power pack & coils, here are the part numbers I found...

Power Pack OMC #584636 changed to #586661 or CDI #113-6212

???(but the power pack number on the boat is #586212)???

Coils OMC #582508 or CDI #183-2508

Thanks,
Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Does anyone know for sure if I have an Optical Ignition on my 1994 Johnson 225 (J225TXER-K).

OMC 60 DEGREE V6 OPTICAL IGNITION TIPS
A guide to troubleshooting the Johnson/Evinrude
60 Degree V6 Optical ignition (OIS 2000) 1991-2003 model years.

Thanks, Pete

Absolutely NOT. You do not have optical ignition.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ordering a new CDI power pack & coils, here are the part numbers I found...

Power Pack OMC #584636 changed to #586661 or CDI #113-6212

???(but the power pack number on the boat is #586212)???

Coils OMC #582508 or CDI #183-2508

Thanks,
Pete

Use CDI part number 113-6212. Great quality, cheaper than OMC.
Notice the last four PN digits on the OMC number are the same as the CDI last four digits.......

I doubt you need coils, but you can find GREAT deals on that exact part number on EBay. New OMC coils at 20 bucks apiece.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

DaselBee, thank you very much, I will let you know how I make out.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Update-

Replaced coils and power pack, motor appeared to run strong, idle RPM's were way up around 2k. I put it in gear quickly (boat is still in slip) to see if she would stall under load and it did not. Shut it down and came back next day when I had more time, started right up and idle now around 1k, then later dropped to 800, very strange? Tried to adjust idle down to 700-750 by using idle screw adjustment and timing light but was unable to get the idle to change and timing stays at 4deg ATDC, should be at 6deg, stange? Retested the motor in gear and it stalled, oh no? This time it stalled differently, it appeared to stall like it was flooding out?

I tried to adjust carbs again (rebuilt them 2 weeks ago), I then noticed a small fuel stream flowing above the primer solonoid cover, it has a small crack in it. So it looks like the fuel system may have been also sucking air (although I put my finger over the crack and did not feel it sucking air). I figure this may have been a secondary problem that recently developed (I mean I must of pumped that primer bulb 50 times while it was running to check for a fuel problem/air, wonder if that caused the crack) because I never noticed fuel leaking out before. Should I replace unit, rebuild or just replace the top cover & gasket (thats where the leak is, on top cover)?

Thanks,
Pete

 

[dingbat]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Shut it down and came back next day when I had more time, started right up and idle now around 1k, then later dropped to 800, very strange?

Perfectly normal, That's Quickstart kicking out.

Tried to adjust idle down to 700-750 by using idle screw adjustment and timing light but was unable to get the idle to change and timing stays at 4deg ATDC, should be at 6deg, stange?

Can not speak for the timing, but my motor has always idled best @ 800 rpm for some reason. Maybe the tach is just off. Never checked it against anything else.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Update-

Replaced coils and power pack, motor appeared to run strong, idle RPM's were way up around 2k. I put it in gear quickly (boat is still in slip) to see if she would stall under load and it did not. Shut it down and came back next day when I had more time, started right up and idle now around 1k, then later dropped to 800, very strange? Tried to adjust idle down to 700-750 by using idle screw adjustment and timing light but was unable to get the idle to change and timing stays at 4deg ATDC, should be at 6deg, stange? Retested the motor in gear and it stalled, oh no? This time it stalled differently, it appeared to stall like it was flooding out?

I tried to adjust carbs again (rebuilt them 2 weeks ago), I then noticed a small fuel stream flowing above the primer solonoid cover, it has a small crack in it. So it looks like the fuel system may have been also sucking air (although I put my finger over the crack and did not feel it sucking air). I figure this may have been a secondary problem that recently developed (I mean I must of pumped that primer bulb 50 times while it was running to check for a fuel problem/air, wonder if that caused the crack) because I never noticed fuel leaking out before. Should I replace unit, rebuild or just replace the top cover & gasket (thats where the leak is, on top cover)?

Thanks,
Pete

Primer solenoid rebuild kit is about $12, a new solenoid is nearly $200.
I think the kit includes top cover and seals.

Timing changes with QUICKstart system kicking in and out.
Mine optical so I don't know the proceedure for yours.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

My 1994 Johnson Ocean Runner 225 (J225TXER-K) continues to stalls under load, when you go over 1000RPM's. I am no mechanic, but it sounds to me like a fuel issue as it conks out when I give it gas. Here is a recap on what I have done, not sure what to do next...

1. Decarbed engine and added new fuel filters and plugs,
2. Ran clean fuel direct to fuel pump on motor (made no differance),
3. Pumped fuel ball under load and its tight, made no difference,
4. Compression Check ok (all between 90-100),
5. Checked it?s not the shift interrupter,
6. Replaced fuel pulse limiter,
7. Did the lync & sync (except could not do the WOT timing at 4500RPM's,
8. Cleaned & rebuilt all carburetors,
9. Checked ignition ok with spark plug light tester, (but since the starboard side was much hotter than port side, performed more testing), hooked up timing light when motor in idle and had good blinking light on cylinders 1-5 but #6 was not blinking, so tested with a DVA adapter on volt meter the power pack, stator and timer base, had some inconsistancies with power pack on coil input for #2 & #6 (#2 coils were cracked), had very low voltages less than 50vdc, checked both sides of stator, was ok, 155vdc, checked all leads on timer base, had more than .2vdc on 5 of 6 cylinders, but #5 Green C wire was 0 (manual says if less than .2, to perform a Sensor Coil Ohmmeter Test, which I have not done yet, thought if I had good spark on 7/16 gap tester and 150vdc on #5 coil input then I should be good, but now that I know #5 coil was cracked bad, wondering if that caused a problem with Timer Base, as someone told me that timer base problems can cause a bad output on opposite sides?),
10. Replaced Power Pack and Coils with CDI,
11. Removed fuel/water seperator to check for water in fuel, gas was good,
12. Replaced solonoid fuel primer top cover (had a crack and began to leak, probably from me pumping the bulb so often to see if fuel issue),
13. Checked each cylinder (idle & load) timing light, all had good steady blinking light,
14. Removed, cleaned & reset the carb floats on all 6 carbs again (had them very slightly past level, so reset to level in hopes to eliminate slight spitting when air cover off).

Does anyone know if you watch a timer base while engine running (idle or load), can you see it move against the stopper/WOT timing adjustment screw, as I have never seen mine move. Not sure where to go from here other than to a Johnson service center...

Thanks,
Pete

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

DASELBEE,

Do you have any further thoughts based on the above?