More political correctness

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: More political correctness

somehow I cant see GW in the intellect mode, I looked his college transcripts up :) :) .<br /> however I can see the education and teaching ability slipping. most social" experiments" in teaching have been miserable failures. while I dont believe in singling out the slow or the otherwise challenged I also cannot see why it should hold the rest of us back. in the 5th grade I read about the japanese american concentration camps. in Grandbay AL it was very difficult in the 60's to get information. in the 7th I requested a book through the mobile county school library system on the subject and ended up in the principles office. I even had one teacher tell me the camps were all lies and stories made up by the communists. one poor family had recently migrated from germany, rainer holzinger was in my class for some years and was teased and tormented horribly. I thank god and my parents that I was not one of the tormentors. however it did expose me to other cultures and for that I was glad. his parents did not speak english well but were hard working and his mom could cook :) :) . <br /> I have 3 sisters that have or currently are teachers and a bro inlaw that is teaching. bro in law has a masters in physics and english sis has a masters in music and english and both are teachers. they must do it for the love of teaching cause they dang sure aint a gettin paid for da edukashun dey gots.
 

jimonica

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
313
Re: More political correctness

Quietcat,<br />I think your being a little disingenuous on the name calling front. If you truly thought better about calling a name, why didn't you just edit the whole sentence out that started with "your a _______"? You left it in there for everyone on this board to use there imagination as to what you thought of me. In my opinion that was a little cheap. Now to be fair,<br /> when CJY called DJ an "under-educated idiot", I kind of crinched. Although I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of what CJY has to say, I don't believe we have room on this board for personal attacks. And for the record politicians are fair game for personal attacks, it goes with the territory.<br />Now you asked me to respond to the list of right wing regimes farther to the right of Bush in which you supplied. Good for you, you named a couple more of right wing dictatorships, just a bit duplicitous. You can lump them under the same system or styles of government. Just because one right wing dictator killed more people than another doesn't put him further one way or another on the political spectrum.<br />You used a tourtered analogy of;<br /> "It might be true that the murderous government of Stalinist Russia was left of the current positions of the US Democrat party but is pretty hard to find the difference".<br />A closer analogy for you would to say:<br /> It might be argued that Stalinist Russia is farther to left of the Democrat Party of today. But it appears the Democrats are well on their way.<br />That would be a more honest comparison to what I said. To which I would promptly reply; There is two styles or systems of government to buffer todays Democrat Party and a Stalinist style of communism.<br />There is socialism and democratic socialism. Right now I don't see a whole lot of different styles or systems of government between a right wing dictatorship and George Bush's Republican party.<br />Let me list the following as proof that the Bush administration has moved dangerously close to a right wing dictatorship. Bush's attorney general wrote a memo <br /> describing the limits of torture as anything <br /> that might cause orgin failure.<br /> We have hundreds maybe thousand of people in <br /> prison without charging them with a crime or <br /> allowing them to see a lawyer.<br /> There has been somewhere between 40 and 60 <br /> deaths due to torture at the hands of US <br /> interrogators.<br /> The Bush administration floated the idea of an <br /> office of propiganda. They claimed it would <br /> be necessary to throw off potential enemies. <br /> But the dangers of abuse are quite evident. <br /><br />With the track record of this administration, sneak and peak, access to library records and wire tapping without getting approval from a Judge, there is no telling how far they would go.<br /><br />One thing that I do find interesting is you don't want take me up on the fact that this administration is by far the farthest right we've seen in modern history. <br />Richard Nixon was responsible for the EPA and was on his way to a form of national health care until he got tangled up with Watergate. Dwight Eisenhower had a famous quote of "to beware of the military industrial complex". Ronald Regean now looks like a moderate statesman compared to Bush.<br />I never thought I'd say this, but I long for the republican party of old.
 

CJY

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
1,242
Re: More political correctness

DJ, you said,<br /><br />
"Top down" management style, adapted by Federal and State education departments reek of socialism. In other words, catering to the lowest common denominator.<br />
I'm sure you realize this "top down" style comes from the very top, right. NCLB, is just one example. The President you support employs this strategy with his educational policies.<br /><br />You also said,
The "Sixties Crowd" has long left the classroom, they're the "administrators" now. Over degreed idiots, in my book.
You called an entire generation of teachers and admins. idiots. In that case, if I fall into that group, whether you name me or not, you did refer to me as an idiot. So I guess liberals are not the only to resort to this tactic, unless.....you are a liberal. Besides, I did not resort to it, I lowered myself to this level so you would understand me.<br /><br />
By the way, learn a "sentence break" and paragraph-will ya?
What were you trying to say when you made this statement DJ. By the sounds of it, I don't think you were trying to boost jimonic's ego. Again, you threw the first stone as well as the second.<br /><br />Furthermore, DJ, having educators in your family does not make you one. That is the equivalent to staying at a Holiday Inn.<br /><br />
However, knowing the educators in my family, I can tell you that they are sick of the garbage handed to them to teach and administer. Teachers are no longer able to teach according to their classes. They must "tow the line" or be disciplined.
Education is no different than any other profession. Teachers, like MD's, engineers, mechanics and all others have guidelines to follow when doing their jobs. We (teachers) don't have the right to pick what we teach, nor should we. Evidently you can't imagine what the result would be if every educator at every level taught what they wanted with no guidelines from above. Your quote on this shows your ignorance on this subject, your lack of thought, or simply you just being you. As I have said in other threads, you often pick a side which best suits your needs at that moment. Within the framework set up by the state as well as the BOE, we can teach as we see fit to best suit each of our classes needs. That is all a good teacher needs. Any good teacher will tell you they care little of what they teach, so long as professionals select the curriculum. The good ones only care about having the freedom to teach as they see fit. DJ, When I say you know nothing of today's public education, your very statements indicate this. <br /><br />I will continue by saying any teacher that I am familiar with that does not have the freedoms as I have just stated is because they struggle within the profession themselves. It happens, and if they don't "tow the line'" they are disciplined as they should be.<br /><br />If educators taught what they wanted and were not disciplined for failure to "tow the line," I believe you would be singing a different tune.<br /><br />Congrats on passing AZ's grad test. SO WHAT? This perhaps is a slight bit above staying at a Holiday Inn, but still nowhere near making you a qualified educator.
 

CJY

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
1,242
Re: More political correctness

I would normally agree with jimonica, that name calling should not be part of any thread. I guess one of my personal weaknesses is that I will often fire when fired upon. If I remember correctly, there are only two people I have ever returned fire upon here on iboats.
 

wildbill59

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
395
Re: More political correctness

The student can't learn what the teacher can't teach.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: More political correctness

jimonica,<br /><br />Thanks for replying.<br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> In my opinion that was a little cheap . . . I don't believe we have room on this board for personal attacks.
I think you're right. Sorry. That's probably why I have been stalking you for a response. I was feeling a little guilty.<br /><br />I still think that the comparison to Hitler's Germany is waaaay over the top and it really lit my fire. I am very proud of this country and don't believe that we come close to resembling any of the further right examples either of us have given. The fact that you (or I) have not ranked those other righter wing govt's does not mean they are anywhere in the same ballpark in values and morality with the Republican Party or the Bush Administration. I am prepared to defend the morality of the Bush Administration. I wouldn't even know where to start to defend the morality of those other examples. I believe that you intended to infer that our sitting US Government was literally close in values and morality. I understand your contention that due to a lack of labels, that puts them close to those most extreme examples, but I think THAT is disingenuous. No need to defend that point anymore, we just severely disagree.<br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> You used a tourtered analogy
I clearly explained that I pumped it up.<br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> A closer analogy for you would to say:<br /> It might be argued that Stalinist Russia is farther to left of the Democrat Party of today. But it appears the Democrats are well on their way.<br />That would be a more honest comparison to what I said.
Agree. But it is still equally absurd to me.<br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> There is two styles or systems of government to buffer todays Democrat Party and a Stalinist style of communism.
You don't need systems to buffer only distance ;) <br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> Bush's attorney general wrote a memo <br /> describing the limits of torture as anything <br /> that might cause orgin failure.
I suggest that you read some Tom Clancy. I am serious. This is not some sort of fantasy-land we live in. There are some truly evil people in this world and they want to kill you and your family. I want whatever means that we can use to stop them within the morality that this country stands for. I don't care what they do with those evil people and those that support them. I just want them to be gone. If we have to "break a couple of eggs . . ." I am prepared for that on my conscience. <br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> We have hundreds maybe thousand of people in prison without charging them with a crime or <br />allowing them to see a lawyer.<br />There has been somewhere between 40 and 60 <br />deaths due to torture at the hands of US <br />interrogators.<br />The Bush administration floated the idea of an <br />office of propiganda.<br /><br />With the track record of this administration, sneak and peak, access to library records and wire tapping without getting approval from a Judge, there is no telling how far they would go.<br />
See above.<br /><br />
Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> One thing that I do find interesting is you don't want take me up on the fact that this administration is by far the farthest right we've seen in modern history. <br />
I just simply do not agree and have said so. This administration is further left than a significant potion of this country wants it to be. Not necessarily me, but not all whackos either. The reason it feels that way to you is that the norm keeps sliding further to the left. I would submit that this Administration is a lot closer to Kennedy's and Johnson's than you think.<br /><br />Feels more like a good chat now. Bad hijack, on my part. Sorry all.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: More political correctness

CJY,<br /><br />
You called an entire generation of teachers and admins. idiots. In that case, if I fall into that group, whether you name me or not, you did refer to me as an idiot.
Get it right, I said: "over educated idiots".<br /><br />The difference is: you named me-DIRECTLY. My thoughts were opinion, you believe your statements as fact-in your mind.<br /><br />You do not know me, or my family. You HAVE NO idea, but you'll claim you do, of our closeness, or not.<br /><br />I HAVE been an educator, just NOT in the public system. Again, I find it so satisfying to know that I have expected your rebuttals.<br /><br />
If educators taught what they wanted and were not disciplined for failure to "tow the line," I believe you would be singing a different tune.<br />
So, "individuality" is OK, for the students, but NOT the teachers? How absurd.<br /><br />
Congrats on passing AZ's grad test. SO WHAT? This perhaps is a slight bit above staying at a Holiday Inn, but still nowhere near making you a qualified educator.
I mentioned that to note that it is easy and kids today CAN'T pass it. But, you missed that. <br /><br />Thank you for the endless parade of insults that you spew. Your arrogance is shining through
 

CJY

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
1,242
Re: More political correctness

Wildbill,<br /><br />Understood, but where are you coming from?
 

POINTER94

Vice Admiral
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
5,031
Re: More political correctness

Last June, Attorney General John Ashcroft asked Congress to amend the law to give the Justice Department expanded powers to hold suspected terrorists indefinitely before trials and to allow the government to seek the death penalty or life imprisonment for any terrorist act. He also sought new law to let prosecutors bring charges against anyone who supports or works with suspected terrorist groups. <br /><br />The following month, the Republican Congress moved in just the opposite direction, with the House voting to prohibit the use of federal funds for "sneak and peek" searches that the law says can be conducted without a property owner's or resident's knowledge and with warrants delivered afterward. <br /><br />Republican leaders, however, refused to include the language in the massive omnibus spending bill for the Justice Department and most other nonmilitary government agencies that the Senate passed and sent to Bush. <br /><br />The only expansion of Patriot Act-like powers to get through Congress was a measure making it easier for FBI terrorism investigators to demand financial records from casinos, car dealerships and other businesses. <br /><br />Supporters said the measure, included in an intelligence bill, will further help authorities identify money laundering and other activities that fund terrorism. Opponents said it doesn't provide enough safeguards to ensure that authorities won't violate the privacy of innocent people. <br /><br />GOP Rep. Butch Otter of Idaho, a leading critic of the Patriot Act, called the financial records measure an aberration. Many lawmakers and businesses didn't pay much attention to the provision, Otter said, and colleagues told him they would have tried to strip it out of the intelligence bill if they had known about it. <br /><br />"We've really come a long way in two years, and we've really brought an awareness to the Patriot Act and its overreaches that we gave to law enforcement," Otter said. "We've also quieted any idea of Patriot II, even though they snuck some of Patriot II in on the intelligence bill." <br /><br />We have come a long way from a bill that may have been over-reaching to one that meets the needs of law enforcement while maintaining the rights of American citizens. Without Republican leadership this could not have happened. Is it perfect? What would be?<br /><br />__________________________________________________________________<br /><br />A sneak and peek search warrant (also called a covert entry search warrant or a surreptitious entry search warrant) is a search warrant authorizing the law enforcement officers executing it to effect physical entry into private premises without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge and to clandestinely search the premises; usually, such entry requires a stealthy breaking and entering.2 <br /><br />Although neither federal statutory law nor Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure (which governs federal search warrants) expressly authorized sneak and peek search warrants, and although the notice requirement of Rule 41 (under which officers serving a search warrant are required to deliver to the occupants, or leave on the premises, a copy of the warrant and a receipt for articles seized) seemingly prohibited sneak and peek warrants, in the 1980's “the FBI and the DEA ... embarked upon a widespread series of [court-authorized] covert entries in a variety of criminal investigations,”3 and by the end of 1984 had persuaded federal judges and federal magistrates to issue at least 35 sneak and peek warrants.4 There are five reported federal appellate decisions, three in the Ninth Circuit and two in the Second Circuit, involving the validity of searches undertaken pursuant to various sneak and peek warrants issued in the 1980's.5 <br /><br /><br />The USA Patriot Act’s Authorization of Sneak and Peek Warrants<br /><br />Section 213 of the USA Patriot Act,11 enacted on Oct. 26, 2001, contains the first express statutory authorization for the issuance of sneak and peek search warrants in American history. Section 213 is not restricted to terrorists or terrorism offenses; it may used in connection with any federal crime, including misdemeanors. Section 213 is one of the provisions of the USA Patriot Act excepted from the Act’s sunset provisions.12 To the extent Section 213 may conflict with Rule 41, Section 213 prevails.13 <br /><br />Section 213 amends 18 U. S. C. § 3103a, relating to warrants for the search and seizure of evidence of federal crimes, by adding the following: “With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if ... (1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705); (2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property ... except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and (3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.”14 <br /><br />Under 18 U. S. C. § 3103a(b), three requirements must be met before a federal court may issue a sneak and peek search warrant for evidence of a federal crime. <br /><br />First, the court must find “reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705).” 18 U. S. C. § 2705(a)(2) defines “adverse result” to be (1) endangering the life or physical safety of an individual, (2) flight from prosecution, (3) destruction of or tampering with evidence, (4) intimidation of potential witnesses, or (5) otherwise seriously jeopardizing an investigation or unduly delaying a trial. <br /><br />Second, the warrant must prohibit “the seizure of any tangible property ... except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure ...” Whereas the sneak and peek warrants litigated in the Second and Ninth Circuits between 1986 and 1993 were specifically limited to intangible evidence, 18 U.S. C. § 3103a(b) authorizes sneak and peek warrants for the seizure not only of intangibles, but also of tangibles, provided the court finds “reasonable necessity” for the seizure of the tangibles. Presumably, if tangible evidence is seized under a sneak and peek warrant the seizure will be carried out clandestinely; for example, a seized physical object might be replaced with another object that appears to be the original item. <br /><br />Third, the warrant must provide for the giving of notice of execution of the warrant “within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.” <br /><br /><br />How does this scare you? It is a warrant issued by a judge, just not requiring notification or removal of evidence?
 

CJY

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
1,242
Re: More political correctness

DJ,<br /><br />
The difference is: you named me-DIRECTLY. My thoughts were opinion, you believe your statements as fact-in your mind.
That has to be the craziest thing I have ever heard. Are you telling me you don't believe your opinion? Nice. <br /><br />What I wrote was my opinion also, and yes, I do believe them to be fact. It does not mean everybody believes as I do. I believe it im my mind, as you believe in yours. There is no diff except I named one, while you named thousands.<br /><br />You get it right,<br /><br />
Get it right, I said: "over educated idiots".
This is not your original quote if we are being picky once again, you actually called us<br /><br />
Over degreed idiots
I find it funny you only made mention of family members and their connection to education. Then as the circumstances required the need, you also became a former educator, and not just in public education. Just one of those things that make you go hmmm. <br /><br />
Again, I find it so satisfying to know that I have expected your rebuttals.
I find it funny to believe you were aware of the weaknesses in your statements, and you chose not to strengthen them.
 

jimonica

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
313
Re: More political correctness

Thanks Quietcat,<br />I think we both have challenged each others beliefs and thats ok.<br />Now I this time I think I'm done with this post.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: More political correctness

CJY,<br /><br /> As I mentioned, YOU do not know me, or I you. <br />No lies here.<br /><br />Debates are for excersize. Trouble is, we're playing for keeps when it comes to the good of our country and its ability and to remain competitive.<br /><br />Pick away, I can take it and come back with more. But, I won't.<br /><br />I take this seriously.<br /><br />I'm done, not defeated. No sense in arguing with someone that argues for the satisfaction of arguing.
 

CJY

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
1,242
Re: More political correctness

DJ,<br /><br />I was not arguing for the satisfaction of arguing. With that statement, you were again starting an argument. You made a statement about education that pertained to me, and I defended the position to which your statement was directed. <br /><br /><br />My final point DJ,<br /><br />
The hostility toward education is because of its abject FAILURE. More money is thrown at education than practically any other civilized society, with lousy results. Plus, we test everyone. Other countries are still allowed to "discriminate" and put forward their best and brightest. They still allow competition. We have succombed to the "fairness" syndrome.
You have said a mouthful. Problem is, this does not support your position, it supports mine. When you compare Japan to the US, it is comparing apples and oranges. As you stated, we educate and test all. Other countries such as Japan do not. Japan only gets the top end of the spectrum, where we here see the entire spectrum. When you compare their brightest to ours, we compare favorably. This does not happen with a poor system of education. There is always room to improve anything, but we are far from your description of us. <br /><br />I too, take this seriously. It's my life.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: More political correctness

Originally posted by jimonica:<br /> Thanks Quietcat,<br />I think we both have challenged each others beliefs and thats ok.<br />Now I this time I think I'm done with this post.
Works for me . . . Later.
 
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