My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Robj

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

FYI-Pressure treated wood is not treated to be water or rot proof, it's treated to prevent bugs from eating it real fast. At least that's what a lumber salesman from a local yard told me on a job site.

And other bacteria and fungi that break down wood. Wood does not rot by itself, bacteria and fungi and other microorganisms grow and break it down. So PT protects wood from these organisms. And PT wood is not rott proof, it just takes much much longer than regular untreated wood.

Another point, poly if done right, will last much longer than you will care to own the boat, and save you significant $$. This has been debated before, do a search and you will be reading for hours.

Have a great day

Rob.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

And other bacteria and fungi that break down wood. Wood does not rot by itself, bacteria and fungi and other microorganisms grow and break it down. So PT protects wood from these organisms. And PT wood is not rott proof, it just takes much much longer than regular untreated wood.

Have a great day

Rob.

BUT..PT plywood, not rated for exterior use WILL fall apart in the presence of water as mine did... the layers of the bad wood literally fell apart in my hand...
 

sprintst

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Man $54 bucks a sheet is a steal compared to the $120 I'm paying here.
Odds are it's probably even made here which makes it even worse.

I just need 2 more sheets of 1/2 inch. One sheet to finish off the transom at 2" and the other for the doghouse.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Man $54 bucks a sheet is a steal compared to the $120 I'm paying here.
Odds are it's probably even made here which makes it even worse.

I just need 2 more sheets of 1/2 inch. One sheet to finish off the transom at 2" and the other for the doghouse.

Sorry, I misspoke, it is $54.48 US to order it from Lowes.... but that price is for 15/32.. half inch A-Bx Marine grade... $102 C$ is INSANE price @.97:1...

I found B-B rated 23/32 (3/4) Exterior grade for $32....Same glue is used for the Marine and the Exterior grade, and I see no reason to get the A grade faces as one of them is facing a bilge and the other is hiding under carpet! And both are getting covered with glass
 

ondarvr

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

BUT..PT plywood, not rated for exterior use WILL fall apart in the presence of water as mine did... the layers of the bad wood literally fell apart in my hand...


I don't know of any PT that's not rated for outdoor (exterior) use, that "is" what its designed for (there must be some out there though). There are different PT ratings, some are for wet conditions and other are for direct ground contact, still others are designed for use in boats.

Exterior and marine grade ply are not treated to be rot resistant, they just use water resistant glue, although depending on the type of wood used in the marine ply (many options) it may be more naturally resistant.

Going to 3/4 when it was originally 3/8 is a waste of money and will add unwanted weight.

How do you know this was PT wood that rotted? Not that it can't, I just want to know how you identified it as PT.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

OnDaRVR,

Thank you for chiming in, I have come to understand you are a sage with things that float and go...

First things first..

How do you know this was PT wood that rotted? Not that it can't, I just want to know how you identified it as PT.

The soft section of the floor wasn't so much rotted as it was disintegrated, I pulled chunks of wood out that was obviously identifiable as wood, but had COMPLETELY delaminated (the layers of the bad wood were totally separate as if NO glue had ever been there, and even the better sections of the bad section of floor had delaminated although they had not disintegrated..)

ALL the hardware used to attach the bad section of floor to the stringers was off the shelf pnumatic driven steel staples, no screws or nails, just stupid little brad staples... the areas around these staples had turned black, and the black staining had run down the stringers where this section of the floor was residing (even under the glass) the nailed edges were in relatively good condition, other than the staining and the delaminating of the flooring.

My understanding of the stains is this is a result of a galvanic reaction of the CCA in the 20 year old plywood meeting the untreated steel staples... but COULD just be the old staples rotting away.

Exterior and marine grade ply are not treated to be rot resistant, they just use water resistant glue, although depending on the type of wood used in the marine ply (many options) it may be more naturally resistant.

Going to 3/4 when it was originally 3/8 is a waste of money and will add unwanted weight.

In my case the weight isn't necessarily unwanted, one PO had repowered in 03 to a 300HP Alpha gen 2 setup, the engine setup is roughly 150lbs more than the old setup.. this is causing high bow while anchored and some odd trim needs at slow speeds (I have added trim tabs to allow me to trim the bow down WITHOUT using the outdrive trim). I NEED more weight, especially in the bow, but over all more weight won?t hurt me.. the boat is LIGHT (20?6? dry weight 2600 and change) and I run a light gear load (heaviest piece being a cooler full of ice and drinks). I figure I could add 1000 pounds or so and still have room for gear and people (normal day out is 500lbs or so in people)..

The 3/4 ply would only add 200 pounds or so, at or below the water line, which as far as stability is concerned should be a good thing, but should be far more rigid than the boat was delivered, add in the improvements in glass application and I should be sitting pretty?

BTW with a Quicksilver 23P SS prop I am topping 70MPH in the engines efficiency range (4600RPM) but only doing so at 8/10ts throttle...and have plane on demand from idle, I do need a new prop, and can go down to a 21 if I need to adjust for added weight when all is said and done with the refit..

I realize I might be coming across as argumentative, or cocky, so please if there are reasons for me to NOT use the 3/4 other than the added weight feel free to comment, but at this point I believe added weight is a GOOD thing in my case? NOW if I need to replace the stringers, I will fully redesign the underfloor supporting structure to allow me to use a lighter deck without having to worry about it buckling as the current 3/8 flooring is doing?

My initial feel for the project is Chaparral cut some corners when originally building the boat, the HULL is great, and well built, but only using glass to seal the wood on ONE side is chincy at best? even the front seating areas only had glass and resin on one side? the port side bow seat had almost completely rotted from the INSIDE of the seating supports where there was no glass or resin, but at least the wood wasn?t delaminated like the bad section of floor I took out? the front 12 inches of floor (under the bow seating, but still part of the deck) had NO glass to the hull, the glass ended even with the face of the seating area?
 

oops!

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I have 2 suppliers that have said CSM and Epoxy are OK,

I suppose I could just say to heck with it and either stick with polly (although the cost is now offset by the increase in extra work)... or If using the epoxy, I COULD just stick to the woven glass... hmmm more deciding to do... more work by sticking with the woven glass, or more work and go with CSM....


hi....nice project
just a comment from a few posts ago.

epoxy and csm are not ok....they can be used together....but.....its the styrene in the poly resen that breaks down the binders in the csm....epoxy does not have the styrene.

you dont need the csm with the epoxy, because epoxy is such a great glue that the brittle resin rich area between the substraight and the material is stronger.

i have found that when you are glassing, it is nothing to add csm. the material is light enough that it soaks up the resin easily and the air rolls out like a dream.

cheers
oops
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

hi....nice project
just a comment from a few posts ago.

epoxy and csm are not ok....they can be used together....but.....its the styrene in the poly resen that breaks down the binders in the csm....epoxy does not have the styrene.

you dont need the csm with the epoxy, because epoxy is such a great glue that the brittle resin rich area between the substraight and the material is stronger.

i have found that when you are glassing, it is nothing to add csm. the material is light enough that it soaks up the resin easily and the air rolls out like a dream.

cheers
oops

Thanks, I have used Poly on other applications, and though I would give the epoxy a go for this one (I HATE the poly fumes)..

Thanks, I have done some more reading and it seems there has been limited success with CSM and Epoxy, but I would rather stick with tried and true.. SOOOO epoxy and woven cloth it will be.. I'll just have to stick with multiple layers of the weave...

It is your project that had me make up my mind to tackle this myself... I am under no timeline other than to want to be on the river soon... My wife keeps asking me how many feet I am gonna add...
 

ondarvr

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I didn't re-read the other posts, but I think you said this was a repaired area, but it also sounds like it includes some original construction too.

The PT ply from 20 years ago is different than what's used now and didn't have a corrosion issue like the more recent products.

What I think what you're seeing is just the normal staining from cheap staples in standard ply, or in the repaired area possibly cheap interior ply.

Rarely is more weight your friend in a small boat and adding thicker ply will add more weight as you go away from the bow because there will be more floor surface as you go back. Your best bet would be to move other things forward as needed to counter the added engine weight and keep the overall weight down. I moved my fuel tank, battery and tool box (heavy) all forward when I changed the lay out of one of my boats and it worked well.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I didn't re-read the other posts, but I think you said this was a repaired area, but it also sounds like it includes some original construction too.

The PT ply from 20 years ago is different than what's used now and didn't have a corrosion issue like the more recent products.

What I think you're seeing is just the normal staining from cheap staples in standard ply, or in the repaired area possibly cheap interior ply.

Rarely is more weight your friend in a small boat and adding thicker ply will add more weight as you go away from the bow because there will be more floor surface as you go back. Your best bet would be to move other things forward as needed to counter the added engine weight and keep the overall weight down. I moved my fuel tank, battery and tool box (heavy) all forward when I changed the lay out of one of my boats and it worked well.

Yes it was a repair, there was 8" glass tape across the seams, but nothing on the center of the panel, 99% of the rest of the floor is perfect... but about half of it is already out, I have seen too much spotty work (and more than a few dark spots UNDER the glass)..

Not to mention the sagging consoles (windshield takes some effort to get it closed as BOTH consoles are sagging to in inboard side) and the walk thru area floor, while in good condition is sagging due to being completely unsupported underneath... the foam I have pulled is in excellent shape, and dry amazingly enough, I MIGHT reuse it, but will probably be re-pouring new 2lb density foam... rain tomorrow, but this weekend other than being cool outside, should be nice enough for me to get the rest of the floor pulled out.

Once the floor is out, I will be coring all the stringers, the transom, and any other wood I can find to drill into... I am still holding onto hope that I can be on the water by my birthday (end of April)...

Now what I did decide to do today was get 2 5 gallon buckets (OK I already have them but...) fill them with concrete with a lag bolt poking out the top... chain them together to hold the nose of the trailer down as if I climb on the transom step the bow points to the sky...

Once I am done I can use them to sort out my weight distribution issues, and either move stuff forward to balance the boat, or add permanant / temporary ballast (either weights or water bags a-la a wake boarding boat..)

I have thought about moving the batteries, tools, etc up front, but my space forward of the consoles is limited unless I put it under the floor... but I can fix some things when I re-do the layout... there was TONS of dead space up there not being utilized for anything... I plan to use it all...

Thank you for chiming in, I have done this type of work on other vehicles (cars, planes, helicopters, motorcycles) but this IS my first boat... but won't be my last one...
 

Robj

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Just a few comments:

The wood/galvanic reaction with the fasteners was not a result of using PT wood. It was just wet wood reacting with steel staples.

I have yet to see interior grade PT plywood. PT wood is used for one purpose, to prevent it from rotting and is for outdoor use. I believe some even state it on the product literature.

I used CCA treated wood for my stringers and bulkheads.

Have a great day

Rob.
 

109jb

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I will admit that I only scanned the thread and didn't read every single post, but I have a few comments on what I did read.

1. Pressure treatment of wood IS for rot prevention and not just for insects. The chemicals contain a fungicide which prevents fungal growth. Wet wood is just wet wood, it rots because of fungal growth.

2. There are different retention ratings for different uses. Direct ground contact requires the highest retention rating and is used on things like posts. All types of wood products, including plywood, though can have different retention ratings. To get the absolute best rot and insect prevention you need the highest retention rating. With the proper retention rating, pressure treated wood, including plywood, can be used for underground use in foundations. Using plywood for this is not too common, but can be done. Pressure treated posts however are commonly used for deck supports where the post is buried and in direct contact with the ground and they can and do last decades in this application.

3. A mention was made of 4 plies. Plywood is always manufactured in odd numbers of plies.

4. The fact that the wood in the original post was rotted to the point it was leads me to believe that it was not pressure treated plywood and could have been an untreated exterior grade or even interior grade plywood. I saw nothing in the pictures that would lead me to believe that it was a pressure treated piece of plywood. I did see things in the picture that would lead me to believe that the plywood in question was interior grade in which case it would not necessarily even have glues rated for exterior use. This could be the explanation for why the plies fell apart when removing. Pressure treated implies an exterior product. I don't ever remember even seeing a pressure treated interior plywood ever.

5. Marine grade plywood is nice, but consider that the big difference between exterior grade standard plywood and marine grade is generally the allowable size of the defects in the plies. They both use exterior glues. If you can live with the defects of regular ply then the only significant benefit I see of using marine grade is that it seems a bit easier to find higher ply count marine grade than conventional plywood. I personally used 1/2" A-B exterior grade 5-ply plywood on my Sea Ray. It was all covered by glass anyway and I replaced the flotation foam which IMO provides a significant amount of stiffness to the deck and hull. It was also easier to obtain locally.

6. If I had to do it over, I would probably use standard PT plywood. I didn't because I was in a hurry and didn't want to wait for PT plywood to dry. In retrospect I have found information that for gluing, fiberglassing, etc, it is not entirely necessary to completely dry the wood. If the outer surfaces are dry then the bond will be fine. Being the skeptic that I am I actually glued pieces of PT 2x4 together with epoxy and another test piece using construction adhesive. I used a lap joint and the PT 2x4 in question was new and dripping wet still. I then held one end in my vise and beat the other end to failure. The test showed me that the glued while wet bond lines were stronger than the wood itself. The broken apart pieces failed away from the glued joint in both cases. Not real scientific, but good enough for me.

With proper care either exterior grade, marine grade, or PT plywood will last for many many years. Neglect is what kills our boats.

My 2 cents.
 

Robj

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Could not have said it better myself. ^^^^

Well said 109JB The only part I wouldn't do, is use wet wood. I much rather let it dry beforehand.

Have a great day

Rob.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Well, 99% of the rot is gone... 80% of the glass securing the decent wood is ground away... and a whole bunch of itching is over for the day..more grinding tomorrow and all the deck should be OUT...

I have ground all the seams with the exception of about 5 feet or so...

100_2782.jpg


The front piece of deck was only about 18 inches long, didn't go all the way to the front, and once the glass was ground away it lifted right off...

100_2778.jpg


Got all the grinding under the stbd console done, need to finish the port and pull up all the decking...

100_2783.jpg


Touched the top of the Port stringer, looks to be good wood, still need to sore drill it near the bottom, but the tops are SOLID where the wood has already been removed... Pic the the stringer than makes up the port side of the ski locker, still need to pull the carpet out of the ski locker, but it is UNDER an aluminum channel on the underside of the deck (channel is holding the fuel fill and vent lines).. I will deal with it tomorrow

100_2776.jpg


Rotten wood under the stbd console... I am finding small rotten spots in the strangest places...

100_2779.jpg


Oh she is a mess right now... but soon enough she will be "ship shape"!

100_2780.jpg


On for tomorrow is finish grinding, get all the deck pulled out, cut supports for the consoles, and core drill the stringers and transom... hope next weekend can be spent cutting the new deck and structures, and maybe even a little bit-o-glassing...
 

mytquinn

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

The floor/stringer design looks alot like my '88 Chap. I'm still in the process of getting all the foam out of it. It was all wet. Must have took about 250lbs out of it. Most of it is out, but I'm trying to get all the last bits scraped out. Going to Lowes today to get my new stringers, and some PL.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Well, today brings more work done... or should I say undone...

Is It a bad thing when you cut the bottom of the glass on your stringers and WATER comes out?

IMAG0169.jpg


A LOT OF WATER

IMAG0170.jpg


Everything forward of the gas tank is out, the bulkheads on the front of the gas tank is slotted together with the stringers... and half *** glassed together... I cut one side and the stingers lifted right out... I managed to get them in one piece so I can reuse them as templates... foam was MOSTLY dry, but is out anyway!

IMAG0171.jpg


and the floor is all out, except the pieces to either side of the engine..

IMAG0172.jpg


Tyvec and duct tape keeps the itch away..more tomorrow, and in the next couple of weeks or so...
 

Fisherball

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

I haven't worked on rebuilding a boat but as a construction worker for years I learned a few ways to help with the glass-attack that makes you itch! Rub lots of talcum powder on your arms & any exposed flesh. It will fill the pores & cut down on what gets injected into your skin. I wear a flannel shirt with the sleeves duct taped tight. When you take your shower start with cold or real cool water & rub down with soap the areas exposed to glass right away. Hot water will open all the pores & make you itch.
 

c0y0te56

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Hey Avi
What Happened? Where you go? I'm waitin.LOL
Looks like your going to get it right this time
I have the same boat with the sport seats you were asking about.
Am wondering if you drilled to check the transome. I am curious as I may be doing the same project next year.
I got this boat a couple months ago and have spent my time and money getting the running gear working. It belonged to a Kid all automotive parts and Mickey Moused together.
I'm trying to get it on the lake to see if it is worth the hassle.
 

avimgod

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Re: My Oh My, why not to use PT wood without glass or resin..

Hey Avi
What Happened? Where you go? I'm waitin.LOL
Looks like your going to get it right this time
I have the same boat with the sport seats you were asking about.
Am wondering if you drilled to check the transome. I am curious as I may be doing the same project next year.
I got this boat a couple months ago and have spent my time and money getting the running gear working. It belonged to a Kid all automotive parts and Mickey Moused together.
I'm trying to get it on the lake to see if it is worth the hassle.

I am taking a break from the boat for a while, need to get 2 cars running first...

Then it will be on to finish the boat... I reassessed my priorities and boat fell to the bottom! I will post updates when I pick back up.. Maybe later this month..
 
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