Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

[455olds]

I need to determine the best course of action to protect my interests.

Short story:

I have a jet boat with a 455 oldsmobile with a high rise and twin Holley 600's. It had been in storage for a season without use. After pulling it out this spring, I decided that it was finally time to have the carbs gone through and tuned, since they'd leaked a little gas for a very long time, and now the seals and what-not had likely dried out substantially from sitting....

I changed the oil and filter, filled the gas tank with fresh gas, and brought it to a shop for a complete "rebuild, clean-up, tuning, and synchronization."

Picked it up yesterday.

First time out, it idles very poorly... rough as hell to be precise. Could barely keep it running through the no wake zone after leaving the dock... black smoke emminating from the exhaust. Once out of the no wake zone, I had to stumble across a flat spot in the throttle to get the RPM's up... got to decent speed, but was missing pretty badly and even a backfire or two along the way.

Pulled her immediately back to the dock and trailered it.

Called the shop and plan to bring it back in this evening... but the kicker is, after I talked to them, I checked the oil (not sure what made me curious) and saw that it had actually increased in volume. Pulled the plug for the drain tube and it "flowed" out... not a trickle like a thick high viscosity oil, but like it was water... except no bubbles like water in the oil... and it smelled highly of gasoline.

Should I take it to the same shop and explain what happend? Hoping they'll fix it and I'll be all good? Or did this potentially cause much larger problems, that I should have another shop look at, in-case I'm now looking at a new block that I might go back on the original shop to replace? I worry that the original shop will down-play the mistake, change the oil and make a few adjustments, hoping to send me on the way before a bearing failure....

 

[John_S]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Well, it sounds like way too much gas is being dumped down the barrels at all speeds. I don't know Holleys enough to say what might be causing it outside of float level adj / needle valve stuck open.

If you have a mechanical fuel pump, check to see if the site tube is dumping gas into carbs. Tube should be clear of any gas or liquid. Not sure how you would have that dual carbs plumbed on the 455, but excess fuel pressure can cause this issue as well.

 

[Lyle29464]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

I would ask them if they would pull the engine and check the bearings. It could save a large repair later.

 

[Fishermark]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

If you have a mechanical fuel pump, check to see if the site tube is dumping gas into carbs. Tube should be clear of any gas or liquid.

I too would suspect the fuel pump. If I am not mistaken, the diaphragm can rupture internally as well - dumping gas into the crankcase directly. I doubt seriously that you would be pouring so much fuel into the engine through the carb that it would raise your oil level. About the only way for that to happen is a ruptured diaphragm dumping fuel directly into the crankcase.

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

I too would suspect the fuel pump. If I am not mistaken, the diaphragm can rupture internally as well - dumping gas into the crankcase directly. I doubt seriously that you would be pouring so much fuel into the engine through the carb that it would raise your oil level. About the only way for that to happen is a ruptured diaphragm dumping fuel directly into the crankcase.

The raise in oil level was minimal at best... very minor. Just enough to notice since I had recently changed the oil and had her spot on the fill mark. More noticeable than level was probably the clarity and viscosity on the stick.

I also considered the fuel pump, but have had zero problems with it in the past, and having just had the carbs re-done, I have to first assume they're the culpret... at least from a starting point.

 

[Kainon]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

While I'm inclined to agree with the still bad carbs, I am leaning to the fuel pump, and it is a quick look of the site tube., heck you can run for 30secs in the drive way and check the site tube if there's nothing in there now if it drained back. and take a quick peek into the throut of the carbs and see which one if both is dumping the fuel.

Then I'd yank the engine and have a peek at the rod & main bearings. keep in mind cam bearings can also be effected.

 

[6meter]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

I certianly would pull your fuel pump and check it before you go out and insert foot where you don't want it. That said, Black smoke, bad idle and rough running could say you have a carb(s) issue. I would suggest going back to your original shop and be nice. Lets figure this out together. They probably will be just as nice to you as you are to them. Change the oil and take them for a ride.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

For heaven sakes, first thing if you haven't dumped all the oil is take a good sample of it and send to an oil lab.

Before you go jumping on the "engine damage" wagon, pointing fingers and asking them to pull the engine etc, see if there are a ton of metal/particulate within your oil that points to bearing and or other issues. Given the fact you had just changed the oil you should have little to no wear/metals present etc.. You already mentioned it was a minimal difference on the dipstick. I've checked engines that had over 2-3 qts of gas in the crankcase from someone cranking the engine till the battery is dead with 4 stuck injectors!! Then drove it to my dealership once they did get it running on the 4 good cylinders... Even there, no bearing damage took place.

Big picture, definitely save some of that "gasie oil" and send to a good lab for analysis. Have them pull both carbs and check them out - you very well have a float and/or power valve issue. If you are running a mechanical fuel pump check it as well - but as others have mentioned, the culprit given the situation is likely the carbs. Once all check out, change the oil/filter and stroke her up and begin final adjustments/checks.

Just ensure the "alleged" shop documents all the facts for you in the event your sample comes back with less than desirable findings.

Good luck!

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Update:

I called the shop and explained what I found with the oil... they said to bring it in and they'd change it (for a fee) before reviewing the carbs... So I bought new oil and a filter and am doing it myself first.

Found a few things:

1. The oil flowed out of the drain hose (that comes from the bottom of the pan and is long enough to run out the drain plug) like it never has before... generally I have to use a drill pump to suck it out, and then only get about 4 of the 5 quarts out (with filter change)...but this time it flowed like water, and I got close to five quarts out. I ran a few more quarts through the engine just to (hopefully) clean it out a bit better. Smelled like gas something fierce...

2. I have oil on the underside of the exhaust and the side of the block near the back right corner of the engine... cylinder #4... the only time I've ever seen that was back in 2003 when I spun a main bearing.

I'm going cut the filter open now to see what I find...

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Overall, the filter was clean. I found one shaving that makes me a little nervous, but other than that it was clean. Nothing like the last bearing failure I saw... that filter was a mess.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Overall, the filter was clean. I found one shaving that makes me a little nervous, but other than that it was clean. Nothing like the last bearing failure I saw... that filter was a mess.

Did you save an oil sample - that will tell you way more than looking at the filter. Unless you find it full of "silver/copper"... Only costs about $20-30 to mail it in and get a full report of any/all contaminates etc.

Cheers

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Aside from the fuel pump possibility, I would lean towards carb issues. I have a lot of experience running dual holley 600's on a nitrous fed SBC, and they are a bear to tune correctly. If you have backfired through the carb, there is a good possibility that you blew a power valve. They make replacements for it that don't blow, but it entails pulling off the bowls and metering blocks.

Regarding the rebuilding of the carbs, I have a few questions. I (obviously) don't know who did your work, but what is their experience level with Holleys? Every mechanic says they can rebuild a Holley, but I had mine professionally done by a carb master that works in the NASCAR truck series and I was lost at the wild stuff he was doing. There really is an art to it and Holleys are some of the toughest carbs around to get correct. They get down to changing individual throttle spings to ensure the proper reaction.

When running 2 carbs, they have to be sync'ed together under load, so there was no way they did that unless the boat was in water. My guy was redrilling the metering blocks and bench flowing parts to get them right.

The other option is (more expensive) dumping the Holleys and getting 2 Edelbrock 600 from the shelf at Auto Zone or Advance Auto and they come ready to run. They are pre-bench tested from the factory. The only thing you might do is change metering rods to suit you specific vacuum needs. I have run Holleys, Carter AFB's, and Edelbrocks. I'll never opt for Holleys again.

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Did you save an oil sample - that will tell you way more than looking at the filter. Unless you find it full of "silver/copper"... Only costs about $20-30 to mail it in and get a full report of any/all contaminates etc.

Cheers

Yes... I saved a couple samples and plan to send them to Blackstone Labs, unless someone's got a better suggestion.

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Regarding the rebuilding of the carbs, I have a few questions. I (obviously) don't know who did your work, but what is their experience level with Holleys?

Not sure... but I'm getting worried...

I considered doing it myself, but knew that after the disassembly, cleaning, and rebuild, I'd be stuck at the tuning part... I just don't have the expertise. So I called around locally, talking to lots of shops that wouldn't touch it, because they admitted to not having the resources or expertise. The shop I ended at, sounded legit, and talked a good game, but has since left me with doubt.... they didn't know they shouldn't run a jet dry for starters, and then figured they could just set it to run at idle and it'd run fine at top end... which might be the case, but sounds off to me... Hell, today when I called him, he said that he didn't really have the resources to set it up on the water, and that he couldn't run it in his shop.... but he had no good answer to why he said he could do the job then...

The whole reason I hired a "professional" was to avoid these problems....

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Go online to the Holley web site and they will provide you with the basics on tuning the carbs. Initial set up, low, mid, and high range settings should be there as well. You will need a vacuum gauge, though (not expensive). Just make incremental settings until you get your highest vacuum reading for each setting and start there. Also make sure that the floats are set properly, you could be starving the engine under load. use the clear site plugs for the bowls. Cheap and easy.

http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm

 

[OldNBold51]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Aside from the fuel pump possibility, I would lean towards carb issues. I have a lot of experience running dual holley 600's on a nitrous fed SBC, and they are a bear to tune correctly. If you have backfired through the carb, there is a good possibility that you blew a power valve. .

Holleys are notorious for blowing the power valve which leads to symptoms just like you described. A well tuned Holley runs really well but all too often the power valve blows.

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

UPDATE:

2 months into this thing.

I finally got a call the week before last that basically said, "I'm clueless, I can't figure it out" so they sent the boat down to another shop a few hours away.

Left me a VM yesterday that it was up and running and to come pick it up.

I called him back today and he said it's good to go and that I should stop by tomorrow when he's there to get it and to settle up. I asked him what "settle up" meant, since I already paid for a carb rebuild and tuning, and that he was merely finishing the job... slowly at that. He said that he was being as nice as he could, and that he knocked a ton of hours off it, but it cost him another tank of gas and 3 oil changes, and a lot of hours. I explained that the tank was full when he got it, which should have been about 3/4 of a tank more than any other mechanic would have needed to rebuild and tune a couple carbs, and that the oil also was fresh... and then re-freshed after his first gas overload. He said that it was an incorrect gasket that kept causing it to run into the oil, and that he had to keep changing it. Apparently, the fact that HE put that wrong gasket in, and the fact that HE used all the gas didn't mean anything.... Bang Head Bang Head Bang Head

Am I way off base in thinking that not only should I not owe one more dime, but I should be getting something back for not having my boat for the last two months... especially after I was quoted $500 and "about a week" and am now up 2 months and about $730 the first time plus another request for $350 more... what a joke.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

UPDATE:

2 months into this thing.

I finally got a call the week before last that basically said, "I'm clueless, I can't figure it out" so they sent the boat down to another shop a few hours away.

Left me a VM yesterday that it was up and running and to come pick it up.

I called him back today and he said it's good to go and that I should stop by tomorrow when he's there to get it and to settle up. I asked him what "settle up" meant, since I already paid for a carb rebuild and tuning, and that he was merely finishing the job... slowly at that. He said that he was being as nice as he could, and that he knocked a ton of hours off it, but it cost him another tank of gas and 3 oil changes, and a lot of hours. I explained that the tank was full when he got it, which should have been about 3/4 of a tank more than any other mechanic would have needed to rebuild and tune a couple carbs, and that the oil also was fresh... and then re-freshed after his first gas overload. He said that it was an incorrect gasket that kept causing it to run into the oil, and that he had to keep changing it. Apparently, the fact that HE put that wrong gasket in, and the fact that HE used all the gas didn't mean anything.... Bang Head Bang Head Bang Head

Am I way off base in thinking that not only should I not owe one more dime, but I should be getting something back for not having my boat for the last two months... especially after I was quoted $500 and "about a week" and am now up 2 months and about $730 the first time plus another request for $350 more... what a joke.

That's a tough nut. the bottom line is that it is sometimes touhg to know exactly which gasket to use on some holleys - be it the base gasket or the metering block gaskets. and if you get the wrong one, (whichj I did recently even knowing and checking for it) it'll dump gas down into the intake but underneath where you can't see it!

I don't have a good answer, buit i would think the first shop owes you some relief on this one - but it will be hard for them to giv eup, they're not printing money. They said they could rebuild the carb, they put the wrong gasket in it, the other guy had to figure what they did wrong (a lot tougher then doing it right the first time. especially if it was the base gasket, that's not the first thing you take apart when looking to see what;s wrong...

 

[455olds]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

I don't have a good answer, buit i would think the first shop owes you some relief on this one - but it will be hard for them to giv eup, they're not printing money. They said they could rebuild the carb, they put the wrong gasket in it, the other guy had to figure what they did wrong (a lot tougher then doing it right the first time. especially if it was the base gasket, that's not the first thing you take apart when looking to see what;s wrong...

It was actually the first shop that brought my boat to the second... not me. They couldn't do it, so they called around and found another shop that could (I believe still within their company) several hours away....

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Need Advice... Had shop rebuild carbs, now runs poor and gas in oil...

Thats the economy for you. Probably wasn't capable of doing the job correctly, but didn't wanna pass on the work so took it and got in over his head.

Don't know how the two of you will handle it but, I am a owner of a plumbing shop, If we do a job, bill and get paid for it, and I get a callback it was not done correctly, guess what... I am eating it. That's the way it is. Call backs cost money.. period.

I always tell the guys take your time, don't fudge something to get it to work, do it right and we'll bill for it. The customer is happy the job is right and we move onto bigger and better things.

Unless, the problem is not related to work we have done, that's a different story.
Eric