Need help in estimating supplies

[NatedoggAZ]

Hello all,

First off - I know this is not an exact science - but many of you have had to purchase supplies for your rebuilds, something I have not yet done before... just hoping for a little guidance on quantities used for a project like this.

I am partially replacing stringers and decking - and hoping someone can provide an approximation on the following:

1. epoxy resin - (already purchased 1 gallon resin that comes with 1/2 gallon hardner - mix is 2:1 ratio)
2. Cabosil
3. 1/4 milled fibers (or whatever size is suggested)
4. 1.5 oz fiberglass - CSM
5. 1708 fiberglass
6. brushes / containers / stir sticks / rollers
7. anything else I may have forgotten (tools or whatever) that help make the job easier

Here is what I am replacing / repairing:

1. approximately 12 feet of stringer boards (5-6 feet on each side) stringers made of new ACX plywood which are 2 x 15/32 thickness epoxy glued together and about 6-8 inches deep from top of stringer to hull
2. approximately 25 square feet of decking - using the same ACX plywood above - but only 1 layer of 15/32


Again - I just am not sure where to start.. I don't want to buy half of what I need and then be stuck right in the middle of a job having run out of something - but then I don't want to spend a ton of money buying 10x the stuff I really need...
Buying a little more than I need is OK - but buying far more or far less would be a wast of time and money...

And again - I know this is not a exact science - I just need a good idea so I am in good shape and start off with what I need...and maybe will not have to buy more or have an over abundance at the end.

Thanks!

ND

 

[Redtruck12]

First step will definitely be understanding the difference in materials using eeeepoxy and polyester resin
you mention csm , 1708 etc (used with polyester)
pictures will help judge the scope of work as well as a description of the boat you’re working on.

 

[froggy1150]

Also I had planned on buying all my resin at once and was talked out of it by my supplier. Glad I took her advice because life will slow you down and you don't want resin sitting on the shelf going bad. Depending on the quality of poly you are looking at about 6-9 months before it starts to cure in the bucket. Epoxy has a longer shelf life

 

[Woodonglass]

For sure you're gunna need at least 5 gallons of epoxy. You DON'T use CSM with epoxy. Just get 17oz biaxial fabric.
Did you core sample your transom to ensure it's ok? Is this an Inboard or Outboard boat?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Stop buying stuff until you understand what you need

CSM and 1708 are for Poly not epoxy

1 gallon of epoxy is about 10% of what you will need

if you want to gel...you go poly

If you go epoxy....you paint

For a typical restoration, assume $3k for a rough budget for wood, PPE, resin, glass, supplies, etc....more if you go epoxy
since you dont know where to start....start by going thru every link in the DIY sticky at the top of the forym. Start with link 14. That will take 2 days alone to watch all the videos

 

[NatedoggAZ]

A majority of the decking is replacing a fuel hatch cover that is about 5' x 2'
There are 2 other areas of decking that are about 3' x 2' which were cut out due to some rot
Then there are the 2 x 5' stringer sections that need to be replaced.

I just need to make some PB to secure in the new stringers
I also need to wrap them in glass to protect them for additional security.

I got my high performance epoxy resin from TotalBoat. I was told that I could use that product for everything - making PB and using CSM, 1708, and milled fibers...
http://www.totalboat.com/product/high-performance-21-epoxy-kits/

If I need to get some polyester resin as well - that is fine.

Here is one of the areas I am working with - the other side is nearly identical.

1. I need to create and secure in the stringer - with whatever product (epoxy or poly)
a) stringer needs to be glassed to hull using PB and whatever fabric (CSM and/or 1708)
2. I need to coat the top and bottom of the decking - with whatever product (epoxy or poly)
3. I don't have to paint - but I would not mind putting on a coat of bilgecoat if possible

I am not gelcoating over anything - this is all structural work that hopefully I will never see again..

This picture was taken with the tank still in - it has been since removed.
That decking area pictured is about 2' x 3'
The amount of stringer removed is about 3' to 4'

 

[Chris51280]

You can put epoxy over poly but not poly over epoxy. Its a no no.
Not sure if bilgecoat will stick to epoxy. Need to read the label.
I can see that the bulkhead has delamination as well. (bottom left)

Like others said, check the transom and the stringers with a 1/4" drill. Otherwise you are just fiberglassing over rot and it will last 2 years before you see more problems. These wood structure boats have a "good" time for about 15-20 years at the very most. They weren't build to last 30 years without compromising the structure.
It may look good from the outside since fiberglass keeps it covered, but the sub structure is mulch. Soft spots are basically fiberglass without wood underneath.
Do your research and stick with one product.
you can use the 1708 with epoxy but you don't need the csm then.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I got my high performance epoxy resin from TotalBoat. I was told that I could use that product for everything - making PB and using CSM, 1708, and milled fibers...

dont care where you got it.

you were told wrong.

CSM and 1708 can only be used with Poly they can not be used with epoxy..... they need the styrene in the Poly to dissolve the binders in the CSM. 1708 is woven and CSM stitched together.

 

[gm280]

After reading all the comments, it sounds like you are going about this repair in a piece mill situation. I.E. a little here a little there. And if that is how you want to go, this IS your boat. Most take out the floor only to find that there is tons more ROTTED out stringers. And if the stringers are rotted, you can bet the farm the transom is as well.

Since your boat was built using polyester resin and fiberglass, CSM and 1708 are the material you should be using to repair anything on the hull. And DON'T buy ALL your supplies at one time. For sure you THINK you will work on this project until finished straight through. But I can tell you, life will have other ideas and Polyester Resin or Epoxy Resin do have shelf lives. Buy enough to get you going and then YOU will see how much more materials you need along the way.

And buy your supplies from a place that has a huge turn over of such supplies. That way you know you will be getting fresh resins. JMHO

 

[NatedoggAZ]

Thanks for all your comments!

FYI - the transom is fine and brand new - it was replaced last year when I had some engine work done.
So - there is NO concern with the transom at all.

I am only replacing a small portion of the decking and partial stringer replacement.
This is due to there only being wood rot on part of the stringers and decking.

There is no issue with a bulkhead with delamination - that is a built-in riser for where the lounge seats are mounted.

OK - so it sounds like I will need to purchase some polyester resin then....for stringer wrapping and adhesion to the hull.
In addition to the polyester resin - I will need some CSM and 1708 to adhere the stringers to the hull.

...So I just bought the wrong kind of resin... no big deal - I can return it through Amazon...

Do I need epoxy resin at all - or just do everything with polyester resin?

ND

 

[Redtruck12]

If you’re going poly I would go ALL poly
a couple gallons would get used pretty fast but will likely get yo most of the way through your structural repairs
laminating resin -unwaxed

 

[NatedoggAZ]

OK - sounds good - polyester resin instead of epoxy resin it is then...

Now - what type resin can I use to make the stringer boards - which will be 2 layers of ACX plywood "glued" together?

I have heard that polyester resin is not good for an adhesive to accomplish this?

Thanks!

ND

 

[Scott Danforth]

Thanks for all your comments!

FYI - the transom is fine and brand new - it was replaced last year when I had some engine work done.
So - there is NO concern with the transom at all.

I am only replacing a small portion of the decking and partial stringer replacement.
This is due to there only being wood rot on part of the stringers and decking.

There is no issue with a bulkhead with delamination - that is a built-in riser for where the lounge seats are mounted.

OK - so it sounds like I will need to purchase some polyester resin then....for stringer wrapping and adhesion to the hull.
In addition to the polyester resin - I will need some CSM and 1708 to adhere the stringers to the hull.

...So I just bought the wrong kind of resin... no big deal - I can return it through Amazon...

Do I need epoxy resin at all - or just do everything with polyester resin?

ND

what was your transom done with last year. if you started that with epoxy, then you are stuck with epoxy for the rest of the rebuild.....as poly will not stick to epoxy..... with epoxy you would use light cloth and woven or biax (1700).

so lets reset the thread with all the pertinent info

what did you do last year..... need details on materials you used.
got pics of what you are dealing with this year?
how much have you cut out?

 

[Chris51280]

You can use titebond3 wood glue
PL premium contruction adhesive
or polyester resin mix with cabosil and 1/4csm fibers (aka peanut butter)

either one will need to be clamped tight.
titebond3 and pl glue need 3 days to gas out before you lay more glass on to seal the stringers.

you can buy resin at any fiberglass store online. us composites seems to be the best around and is used very often here.

shipping via ups carries a haz mat charge. shipping commercial via truck does not but you need a fork truck to have it unloaded at a commercial address. in your case, seems like you are in at 5-10 gallons of resin with 5-10yards of 1708 and maybe 5-10yards of csm. get a bucket of cabosil and 1/4 csm fibers. lots of 2" brushes and gloves, 3m mask with 6001 filter. 10-20 mixing cups. stir sticks. maybe a 1/2"x4" bubble roller. a gallon of acetone.
Hope you grind out oll the loose old fiberglass. and wear a respirator. 100p rated from 3m. filters can be changed over
that should be around 500-1000$ with the wood and misc supplies

 

[JASinIL2006]

You can use titebond3 wood glue
PL premium contruction adhesive
or polyester resin mix with cabosil and 1/4csm fibers (aka peanut butter)

either one will need to be clamped tight.
titebond3 and pl glue need 3 days to gas out before you lay more glass on to seal the stringers.

Actually, Titebond 3 doesn't offgas. It has reached maximum strength after drying overnight. It's water resistance will be equivalent to that of the glue between plies of exterior plywood. It's a good glue to use for this application, and it's advantage over PL Premium is that Titebond 3 doesnt' offgas and doesn't need 3+ days to cure.

 

[NatedoggAZ]

All great info - thank you!

I found a place here locally in AZ that has a distribution center for their products - CompositesOne.

I talked to someone there today and they mentioned possibly using something called Vinyl Ester resin - instead of polyester resin. They said it was sold to the "boat guys"....

https://www.compositesone.com/product/polyester-vinyl-ester-resins/vinyl-ester/

The tag on a 5 gallon bucket (not including hardener) was under $190. I guess the hardener is only sold in 1-gallon quantities which is way too much... basically I would have to get the hardener elsewhere.

BUT - if polyester resin is all I need - I will just go with that.

My only concern is that it does not dry too fast - it will soon be over 100 degrees here - no humidity.

ND

 

[Scott Danforth]

your boat was originally poly

your transom rebuild was XXXX? you still have yet to answer that important million dollar question

what ever you used on your transom is what you are stuck using now on your restoration.

VE didnt start making it into boats until about 20 years ago, and not all boats. many boats today are still poly

 

[NatedoggAZ]

I did not fix the transom - I do not know what they used...

Why does it matter what was used on the transom?

The part of the stringer I am repairing is still 2 or so feet away from the transom...

ND

 

[Scott Danforth]

I would find out what they used

Once you start cutting out tge rot you will be cutting all the way back to the transom

That is why it matters

 

[NatedoggAZ]

Well - I don't think that actually applies in this case...

My transom only takes up a small portion of the stern - with the stringers on the sides of it..

I forgot I had this picture from the guy who fixed it...