New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

[mylesm260]

I just heard that the EPA will be puting very strict regulations on all engines in 2010, including boats and even lawnmowers and chain-saws.

Can anyone confirm this?

If this is true, all boats will have to be EFI'ed and have cats and 02 sensors in the exhaust, would they not? What does that mean for the 40+ year old designes of the alpha's, bravo's and volvo's? How will they incoroporate catylitic convertors into their 100% wet exhast systems?


Man... If this is true, I feel bad for anyone who has to use a chainsaw after 2010... imagine how heavy and expensive a 4 stroke, fuel injected chain saw with a catylitic convertor will be!

I bet a whole lot of people would rather go to electric lawn mowers rather than spend 500-1000 on a gas one!

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Wow, it's true...
Google just answered my question for me

"
To meet the new exhaust emission standards, manufacturers will likely employ catalytic converters for the first time in many small watercraft and lawn and garden equipment. After rigorous analysis and work with stakeholders, EPA determined this strategy was feasible and safe. This regulation also includes the first national standards for boats powered by stern-drive or inboard engines, and carbon monoxide standards for gasoline-powered engines used in recreational watercraft.
"

Found the info here

EPA's Website regarding boats

How the marine cat's look

"
Indmar?s lineup is a little easier to alter?it offers only three basic engines (5.7, 6.2, and 8.1 liters). Merc and Volvo need to offer a broader range of engines, including the 135-hp 3.0-liter four-cylinder engine, which has never been offered with EFI but will need to be fuel injected to meet CARB?s 2008 regulations. According to MerCruiser, its low-volume Mercury Racing engines will be exempt from the Four Star rating due to ?fleet averaging? built into the rules.
"

"
Another big issue was oxygen sensors. Previously, the sensors used in automobiles couldn?t tolerate moisture. Even condensation forming within the exhaust system, common on boat engines, could ruin a sensor. ?If moisture collected on the element, the next time it got hot it would crack,? explains Novotny. But now the automotive industry has produced more robust sensors as well as software that gradually preheats them, allowing moisture to evaporate.
"

"
Fuel economy, however, was significantly improved by the ETX/CAT system. We measured an 8 percent gain at 30 mph, a 12 percent gain at 20 mph, and a 28 percent gain at idle. The boost in economy occurs because this closed-loop system uses an oxygen sensor to control fuel delivery with more precision than on a standard EFI system.
"

 

[chiefalen]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

It would have to be for motors built after the deadline.

Evinrude proved you can build a 2 stroke that meets the standards.

I use a electric chainsaw, just around the house. And very rarely.

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I just heard that the EPA will be puting very strict regulations on all engines in 2010, including boats and even lawnmowers and chain-saws.

I bet a whole lot of people would rather go to electric lawn mowers rather than spend 500-1000 on a gas one!

I thought it was this year, they must have extended it. If anyone recalls, back when Al Gore AKA Mr. Green was VP, he wanted to outlaw the internal combustion engine. Anyway, he did manage get through that 2 cycle O/B would be history after 2007.
Did you think that the manufacturers started making 4 strokes and using fuel injection on their own?

An electric lawn mower is okay if you own 1/10 acre. They're not very practical for 1/2 acre or more. Around here, anyone with say 5 acres or more are using a farm tractor...which I'm sure will be one of the last things the EPA touches.

Evinrude proved you can build a 2 stroke that meets the standards.

As have many other manufacturers by implementing fuel injection. Evinrude is not unique nor the first here. The certification used a specially blended TCW3 oil designed for complete combustion. What kind of oil are you using in your E-Tec ?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I have a 1976 evinrude.

They will have to kill me before i give that away.

Only used in freshwater never kissed saltwater, never will.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

This reg was an either/or proposition. You could start complying, partially, in 2008 and phase in by 2010, or you had to comply 100% in 2009.

If the catalytic convertors hold up, this will be a good thing, as the increase in fuel economy points out. It will be very expensive for us, the consumer, however. Both Mercruiser and Volvo say they are ready and able to incorporate their new catalytic converters into their current powerplants, and even say it won't take up much more space.

 

[Don S]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Volvo is using catalytic converters in California NOW.

Here's a picture of the 2008 5.7GiCE

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Don,
do you know of any production boats these are in?
I'm curious about the heat issue.
Catastrophic converters operate at c. 1000 degrees on cars.

 

[sundowner205]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

So where would the converter(s) be located? In the exhaust manifolds, or separate like in a car?....Wow, If in the manifolds could you imagine the cost to replace them? Holy s**t!

 

[Big Boat Bay Buster]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

This is 2008, NOT 1975! The marine industry has been getting away with avoiding the clean air issues for a long time. The problem is getting a cat hot enough to work in a water cooled exhaust manifold. But with modern day technology, the problems' been solved. I'm sure there will be added cost which will be passed to the consumer. On the plus side, you get a much cleaner, more efficient, better running engine with more horsepower per cu.in. I'm sure those of us with the carbed engines will be left alone.The open vents of gas tanks will also be addressed.
Chris

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

This is 2008, NOT 1975! The marine industry has been getting away with avoiding the clean air issues for a long time. The problem is getting a cat hot enough to work in a water cooled exhaust manifold. But with modern day technology, the problems' been solved. I'm sure there will be added cost which will be passed to the consumer. On the plus side, you get a much cleaner, more efficient, better running engine with more horsepower per cu.in. I'm sure those of us with the carbed engines will be left alone.The open vents of gas tanks will also be addressed.
Chris

Thank God. The auto manufacturer's in 1975 didn't have a clue. They added way more junk than necessary. Interestingly, as an auto mechanic during that era, I discovered that cars before emission equipment were easily capable of putting out less emissions than any other car with all the emission crap on it. I'm talking about cars from the late 40's on up.

 

[abj87]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Wow, it's true...

Fuel economy, however, was significantly improved by the ETX/CAT system. We measured an 8 percent gain at 30 mph, a 12 percent gain at 20 mph, and a 28 percent gain at idle. The boost in economy occurs because this closed-loop system uses an oxygen sensor to control fuel delivery with more precision than on a standard EFI system.

about time they switched to a closed loop system!!

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Catastrophic converters operate at c. 1000 degrees on cars.

Not anymore, they don't. There are effective automobile catalytic converters in the 600 degree F range. All that is old "wives' tales" that the EPA debunked and the marine industry is past already.

Sundowner look at DonS' pic closely, and you can see that the exhaust manifold is where the converter is located.

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

only 600 degrees, inches away from the glass doghouse, in an enclosed space?
I'm relieved.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

There is motorbox insulation that can withstand that heat and more. And, duh, obviously they are going to have water jackets around them, just like exhaust manifolds have now. Not rocket science here folks. And a reality that is happening.

 

[ron7000]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I have a 1976 evinrude.
They will have to kill me before i give that away.

I could use another evinrude, what horsepower?

what's up buddy?

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Who wants to bet 50 dollars this doesn't go into effect? the epa does things like this all the time that never go into effect. There are serious and I mean serious commerce issues here that only congress not regulatory agency's can regulate. This will come before congress because a lobbyist on behalf or the marine industry will bring it and it will be "modified" ( because no congressman can shoot "green things" down) and it will be made so disclusive it will not apply to anything of importance.

What you have here is a one sided argument proposing new regulaations by the EPA what you will have when this act is passed is the result of this one sided argument met by the lobbyist of the opposing industry. There is a reason this is not set to go into effect for 1/2 years.

They will regulate boats and there emissions but it will not be this extreme.

Some of you will say oh but where I live they already regulate this ( ie dons pic of the cali law and emission standard or local 2 stroke bans.) These are local laws not restricted like the powers of commerce. As the consitution says "all powers not granted herein are vested int he states and the people" These local laws do not affect interstate commerce like this would and have no relevance to this rule like this proposed act would.

If it does pass buy two stroke outboards as they will become infinitely valuable.

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Regulations don't have to be enacted.
The Feds bribe states to get them on board.
e.g. Pass a helmet law and don't raise the speed limit and we'll match you're highway funding.
This will affect new stuff only as evidenced by the industry trend (due to EPA pressure). It would be impossible to police everything that's out there now.

If they were to outlaw 2 cycles all together, I'm going to be selling 4-stroke stickers!

I've been searching about the Indmar unit. Here some interesting excerpts from Volvo...
"Volvo Penta utilizes double walls in the exhaust system. The cooling water flows between the walls, thus cooling the outside of the exhaust system while the catalytic converter is able to operate at the required high temperature. Sensors also measure the temperature and adjust engine cooling as needed."
"Volvo Penta selected advanced materials to keep the total weight low and maximize corrosion protection. The aluminum exhaust system is coated with titanium ceramic both inside and outside. This is a very effective corrosion protection method, which Volvo Penta is among the first to use in marine applications."
Sounds expensive to me.
I also found a USCG reg (who doubted the success of such a device) that states that no component in the engine compartment may be over 200 degrees.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Who wants to bet 50 dollars this doesn't go into effect?

Add three zeros to that $50 and you are on, Kris. But I have to warn you, it's already in effect, so you've already lost the $50,000!

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Ya, If you read all the links I put in my 2nd post, you will see that it is infact going to be law in 2010.

Aside from the fact that it will push up the price of boats and especially manifolds/risers, I think this is great news!

Closed loop EFI systems are the best setup by far, Boats will make more power, more torque get better milage, and polute far far less.