NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

[junior1113]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I worked in the auto industry for many years, all vendors be it Champion or NGK or Autolite all sell equivalent plugs. Let's face it, a spark plug is a spark plug. As long as the reach is the same and the plug temp is the same they will all work. These big manufacturers get in bed with a company like Champion who give them the best price for plugs on their new motors swear in the manual that you have to use them. IMO that's BS and marketing, I've ran all different plugs in all different motors and not had one blow up, that's why they sell equivalent plugs, if they didn't work there would be class action lawsuits being filed everyday against the plug manufacturers with claims that their plugs were blowing motors up. You can get the same heat range and reach plug in NGK for your boat and not have to touch a thing, rejetting included. (I didn't know boats were rejetted for plugs, though that was more of a fart can/air filter change on a motorcycle engine type of deal, maybe a racing outboard if you make a pile of changed)

That's like saying you can't run NGK's in your ford mustang, you have to run Motorcraft or AC delco in your GM truck.

Now if you want to get into platinum and iridium or copper core plugs, surface and non surface gap, that is a whole other discussion.

agree with most of this. one instance, bosch plugs and wires in a mustang will make it idle like crap tried 2 sets put new motorcraft plugs and wires and ran fine. plugs wont blow a motor they'll make it run crappy though

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Ya you gotta find what works, they will all work just depends on what the motor likes.

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I think I am going to buy a new set of champions just to see if they make any difference..but I do not think I want to spend the $40 right now..may wait until next year. maybe before summer hits.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

That and a lot of people think plugs are "pre gapped". Usually bad running is equated to just throwing in a set of plugs without adjustment. I learned this the hard way, threw in a set in my 84 TBIRD 302, ran like caca, misfired , no power. I was told at the time that the plugs were pregapped. I checked under the hood, if memory serves they were supposed to be gapped at .044 and they were pregapped out of the package at .030, I pulled them, regapped and it ran like a champ. Always check the gap and straighten the electrode, plugs get dropped in shipping/in the store and can be bought with bad gap.

This is a very true statement... All plugs need to have the gap verified before installation. There are a ton of variables that can change the gap of a plug. Also, the same plug may be used in several different applications and each application my have a different gap set. So, never trust the gap of a plug out of the box...

 

[Knightgang]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

The brand of spark plug can definitely make a difference. Years ago I was driving a Mercury Grand Marquis with a 5.0L engine. I had bought the car with a motor problem, swapped in a used engine which haunted me with a slight miss for years. It had gotten a fresh tune up from the point of install along with any other maintenance items due at that time. The new to me motor had only 11,550 miles on it. I had driven the donor car home and it ran fine. I had never driven the Mercury until the motor was changed.

I had installed 8 new Bosch platinum plugs, thinking that I was prolonging the next tune up. I chased the running problem, which was minor but annoying, for years. Time came for a tune up, I installed a set of Autolite platinum plugs this time. The miss got so bad it wasn't drivable. Not at all thinking it was a plug problem went through every sort of diag test in the book, but found nothing. It felt more like a lean miss than anything else.
I let the car sit for a year or more since I had been given a new company car. After leaving that job, I went about reviving the old Mercury till a new car arrived, I found that some critters had eated the plug wires, so again, it got new plugs and wires. This time, the only source I found for parts was the dealer, so in went brand new Motorcraft plugs and wires. I didn't drive the car much at first, but soon realized that the miss was gone. The car ran better than it ever did. The only different change was the Motorcraft plugs, which this time were not platinum either. I ran that car for another 7 years with no problems till finally selling it last year, still with that last set of plugs.

I had a similar issue with a set of Autolite plugs in my truck, which at the time, I couldn't find OEM Motorcraft plugs for, it ran just plain bad with the new Autolite plugs, so bad that I finally put the old plugs back in and ordered the OEM spec Motorcraft plugs. Up until that point, I had always figured that the Autolite and Motorcraft plugs were one in the same but apparently that's no longer the case.

What I noticed was that in that case, if I cross refferenced the OEM plug number to Autolite, it gave me the Autolite number I had used, but if I cross referenced the Autolite number through the Motorcraft catalog, I got a different plug number. I found this with several brands.

I have mostly all Johnson/Evinrude motors, they all run Champion plugs with the exception of one 15hp that for whatever reason likes NGK plugs, it had a set in it when I got it, I tried a set of OEM plugs but it didn't run or start as well. I went back to the NGK plugs. I do believe it's got a pair of aftermarket coils on it too.

I gotta say that I do not know what Bosch Plugs were actually manufactured for or in what applications they are actually recommended, but they have caused everything I have ever installed them in to run like scrap. I will never buy another Bosch plug...

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I gotta say that I do not know what Bosch Plugs were actually manufactured for or in what applications they are actually recommended

Kubelwagen's, bimmer's, benzes and porches and oh ya, the cars with the 4 magic trick steel rings on the grille, and more than likely most of the war planes from Germany back in the day

 

[Knightgang]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Kubelwagen's, bimmer's, benzes and porches and oh ya, the cars with the 4 magic trick steel rings on the grille, and more than likely most of the war planes from Germany back in the day

Good to know... I do not plan to ever buy any of these vehicles, so I willl not need the Bosch plugs, ever........

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Here is some spark plug information that may help:
" A spark plug by definition is a device that carries (or leads) a high voltage into a combustion chamber and converts it into a spark (by jumping a gap) to ignite any available air-fuel mixture. At the point of explosion, under average operating conditions, the maximum combustion chamber of the internal combustion engine reaches 3,800 to 4,500 degrees Fahrenheit and pressures of 700 pounds per square inch. Conditions which create the variables include (but are not limited to) sudden temperature changes or by sudden pressure changes that are brought to bear by high temperature of burned gases or low temperature of the incoming air-fuel mixture. The spark plugs are subjected to typical firing conditions that heat the ?nose? of the spark plug in the firing chamber to between 1,600 and 1,700 degrees Fahrenheit and suddenly cooled by intake air-fuel mixture. Industry standards require testing of a spark plug to 140 pounds per square inch, whereas NGK Spark Plugs pass tests to 210 pounds per square inch in internal combustion engines. In higher compression engines the spark gap traditionally is lowered as the compression ratio increases. The secondary requirement (grossly overlooked) is that the spark plug is the major path by which heat being generated by the ignition of air-fuel leaves the firing chamber. Heat range by definition is the range in which the spark plug works well thermally. If the firing end temperature of a spark plug drops below its ?self-cleaning temperature?, carbon will accumulate on the firing end, causing it to foul .

The spark plug operational factors affecting temperature are:

? The internal combustion engine?s air-fuel ratio.
? The overall compression ratio of the engine.
? The internal combustion engine ignition timing.
? The octane of the fuel.
? The engine RPM and overall load.

The spark plug operational factors affecting the required voltage of the internal combustion engine are:

? The required voltage (to jump the gap thereby firing the plug) decreases with the increase in richness of the air/fuel ratio.
? The required voltage (to jump the gap thereby firing the plug) increases proportionally to the increase of (cylinder) pressure.
? Ignition timing definitely affects the required voltage (whether the timing is advanced or retarded). As the compression pressure at top dead center (T.D.C.) reaches the maximum, the required voltage reaches the maximum as well. The required voltage lowers in relationship to the advance of the ignition timing since the compression pressure lowers and the spark plug temperature rises.
? Fuel types and mixtures will affect required voltage.
So if you have air leaks on intake side of engine,clogged jets,weak ignition system or wiring problems all this can blamed on plug when its not the plugs fault.

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

man that is one awesome post Faz, i almost understood some of it...lol

 

[cougar1985]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

this is another of those posts that can go on for ever and ever,lol.my omc,s like champion,my yamaha vmax sled loves bosch!!!!!so does my 1970 olympic 12 /3 ski-doo.

 

[alangf]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I have to weigh in on the side of the NGK plugs. I ran an outboard shop many years ago and consistently had problems with Champion plugs. Out of a package of ten plugs two or three would not fire. They always made good on them but I lost all faith in them. These were J6J and J4J plugs. Also, equivalent means just that. An equivalent plug is a direct replacement for another plug. This takes into account its reach, heat range, thread size, and body size. In 55 years of boating I have never had to rejet an engine due to changing spark plug brands.

 

[boomer2]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Lot's of good content in this thread guy's. The only thing that would concern me is that the temp range and of course the reach be the same as Champs. Just today I went to Auto Zone for new Champions for a 1995 50 hp Johnny two cylinder which call for QL78C champions. The counter guy didn't have the correct Champion but cross referenced and came up with an NGK plug part # 4322, which were more expensive by 51cents each. I took them. ( I hope this isn't hi jacking but wanted to relate this as I could post back on any changes noted in my particlar application, if any.) I did ask the counter man if the cross referenced NGK would fall into the correct heat range as the Champions and he say's it should or it wouldn't be listed as a suitable replacement. Maybe this weekend I can try them out. Numbers on the NGK's are BR8HS.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I gotta say that I do not know what Bosch Plugs were actually manufactured for or in what applications they are actually recommended, but they have caused everything I have ever installed them in to run like scrap. I will never buy another Bosch plug...

For a long time Bosch was the only platinum plug you could find.
I can't knock Bosch plugs in general, we used to run them in all sorts of German and Italian cars, motorcycles, and small engines. I still use them in my Stihl saw but haven't owned anything that I felt them a good match for in years on the road.

I wish NGK plugs worked better in the OMC engines, I have a source at work where I could buy them in bulk pretty reasonable. They are the go to plug for high performance engines and racing lately.

The way I see it, Champions work fine, their easy to find and affordable, so why mess with what works? If they spec out Champion plugs, and they've worked fine for so many years, then why not use them?
If they were super expensive and NGK was a cost savings with no drawbacks, then maybe, but their usually a good bit more expensive around here.

The one thing I don't like about Champion plugs is that they do tend to get rusty faster than most others, the plating isn't as good for some reason but for me I rarely keep them in for more than a season or two so it's no big deal.
However I've seen many that were completely rusted up externally yet still running just fine.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I worked in the auto industry for many years, all vendors be it Champion or NGK or Autolite all sell equivalent plugs. Let's face it, a spark plug is a spark plug. As long as the reach is the same and the plug temp is the same they will all work. These big manufacturers get in bed with a company like Champion who give them the best price for plugs on their new motors swear in the manual that you have to use them. IMO that's BS and marketing, I've ran all different plugs in all different motors and not had one blow up, that's why they sell equivalent plugs, if they didn't work there would be class action lawsuits being filed everyday against the plug manufacturers with claims that their plugs were blowing motors up. You can get the same heat range and reach plug in NGK for your boat and not have to touch a thing, rejetting included. (I didn't know boats were rejetted for plugs, though that was more of a fart can/air filter change on a motorcycle engine type of deal, maybe a racing outboard if you make a pile of changed)

That's like saying you can't run NGK's in your ford mustang, you have to run Motorcraft or AC delco in your GM truck.

Now if you want to get into platinum and iridium or copper core plugs, surface and non surface gap, that is a whole other discussion.

I completely agree. I run NGKs in my snowmobile. Pretty much the gold standard in any sled, whether it's a Polaris, Yamaha, Artic Cat etc.... JMO

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

This is getting as long as an oil thread !!!!
Now nobody mention oil !!!!
If anyone does, please close it !!!!

 

[Boss Hawg]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

This is getting as long as an oil thread !!!!
Now nobody mention oil !!!!
If anyone does, please close it !!!!

So if i see wet oil on my NGK's should i switch to Champions
Seriously i've used NGK's & Champions in my Johnsons & they just seem to preform better with Champions so i'll stick to them

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I've been using recycled McDonald's french fry oil in my boat engine for the last 20+ years...and I'm still going strong!

You young whipper snappers can waste your money on some new-fangled hotty-totty synthetic multi-whatever blend of oil if you want...but I get to use my money to actually go boating ever so often, and the french fry aroma beats the heck out of the smell of day old bait!

Oh yeah...I use the factory recommended Champion plugs in my boats and my PWC. I figured that the engine designers probably know more about it than I ever will....

Happy boating!

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I've been using recycled McDonald's french fry oil in my boat engine for the last 20+ years...and I'm still going strong!

Oh great, now you started it , the questions will come flying now!

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Ken said to NOT mention oil...LOL...just like a bunch of fishermen to just try to start trouble. is that frenchfrie oil TCW3 rated??

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Ken said to NOT mention oil...LOL...just like a bunch of fishermen to just try to start trouble. is that frenchfrie oil TCW3 rated??

The way that I see it, anyone willing to go through 57 posts about 3 (maybe 4) brands of spark plugs has to be a dedicated 'wrench head'...and as such, deserves to get the real secrets to successful boating! This is the kind of stuff that governments stamp "TOP SECRET"...and men die to obtain or protect.

TCW3 is an industry ploy; to throw you off of the MickyDee fry oil conspiracy. The real movers and shakers in the marine oil cartel have been repackaging this fryer oil for decades, and selling it on the underground market to real oil junkies...like me. I got 'hooked' back in 1986...and I (or rather, my engine) have to have a quart a day. Needless to say, I have resorted to doing some pretty evil things to support this.

Here is a 'shot' of my former connection...getting escorted out of the marina after being seen passing me a week's worth....