No more foam (correction More Foam)

[sschefer]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

Pretty much we know nothing about this boat except that it had pour in foam below the deck when it wasn't required to or at least we think it wasn't required. Could well have been that the law was in "flux" at the time this boat was designed. Possibly the folks at SeaRay were more willing to over comply than they were to stop production and wait for the govt. to make up its mind. Because we really don't know why the foam is there for sure I think we have to go with the most critical aspect which is that it's structural and advise the OP to replace it. It might not be the call I'd make if I had the boat in my shop but I think it's sound advice to be giving in a forum.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

word

 

[dgarner]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

I sent an email to Sea Ray asking them if the foam was for structural purpose or for floatation. Here is the email I got back from them in the same day.

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Sea Ray 240 Sundancer. The closed cell foam is used to provide reserve floatation, as well as sound proofing between the hull and floor. While the foam is not specifically a part of the hull structure, it does provide some support to the hull floor."

 

[sschefer]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

That pretty much leaves it up to you then. If you're thinking about leaving it out and it is providing some support for the deck, it would make me think that maybe without it the deck flex's if you use the original thickness.

With that though in mind, if you increase the thickness in lieu of putting the foam back you'll need to trim anything that is mounted to the deck by the amount that you increase in thickness. I ran into that problem with a resto that I did. It might be a wash when it comes to the amount of work involved.

That's only if you have stuff mounted to the deck that is fitted to the coaming, consoles, etc.

I hope I explained that right?

 

[kahuna123]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/preventing_rot_in_encapsulated_wood.htm

 

[dgarner]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/preventing_rot_in_encapsulated_wood.htm

After tearing up my foam and the boxes for the foam, I wondered why they never provided any kind of drainage. Sea Ray created this nice water tight box but never figured the boat owners would screw stuff to them thus allowing water to get in and soak the foam. If they would have just put some drainage into those boxes the wood might have been fine.

 

[dgarner]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

That pretty much leaves it up to you then. If you're thinking about leaving it out and it is providing some support for the deck, it would make me think that maybe without it the deck flex's if you use the original thickness.

With that though in mind, if you increase the thickness in lieu of putting the foam back you'll need to trim anything that is mounted to the deck by the amount that you increase in thickness. I ran into that problem with a resto that I did. It might be a wash when it comes to the amount of work involved.

That's only if you have stuff mounted to the deck that is fitted to the coaming, consoles, etc.

I hope I explained that right?

The deck you walk on is raised about 2+ feet from the foam and wood supports. Sea Ray was saying the foam added additional support the hull floor and not the deck floor.

If I do put the foam back in, I need to put in some drainage in so the water can drain to the bilge.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

One idea http://picasaweb.google.com/pacerdude/EntireDeckReplacement89Celebrity224se#5305852018165355202 (pretty good restore also if you want to check out the rest of his album)

 

[aspenshayn]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

I'll be putting in 2 liters to dispurse some of the area. I don't think I have enough foam to fill the hull, so I'm going that route. I don't see the harm and can't wait for delivery of new foam. So it will have about 20 cu.ft. of foam and then some 2 liters glued in.

going in my 91 malibu.

 

[Salt Shaker 88]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

Just had discussion on bottles in the 3M Fiberglass thread, I would use the foam on hand and skip the bottles until more foam can be delivered. I am not sure of your lay out but I would not do it all in one pour, the volume that foam takes up is hard to figure out. If you do foam it in the afternoon following work when it is 75 degrees it will not be the same the next time when you do it Saturday afternoon when its 98 and blow your deck out. If the issue is waiting on more foam then try the truck tube idea while you wait. There is always time to do it right! (To foam or not to foam that is the question)I built my first boat with my dad in 1975 and have been doing projects ever since, every project was built different but they all floated, my latest project is modifying my old Larson hull. I foamed every void under the deck except the small aft bilge where my pump is, I pulled the tank and set it on a foam pad and filled the tub with expansion foam. After I cut out the cuddy cabin I foamed filled the void between the hull and the new bulkhead. My aft deck was pulled in the past and not sealed correctly I had ten holes in the deck for every bolt, there was no wood left only dirt! Every space under the water line and every open void above is now filled with foam and sealed in resin. Why did I go crazy with foam? Because you never see it coming! Last year it was a perfect sunny day out on Charleston Harbor I had the wife and 3 kids with her niece and 2 small children on board up on the bow, we were cruising along the fort watching dolphins for the kids when I heard the roar off the stern. A forty plus foot sport fisher going wide open was 50 yards off my aft port quarter with a tidal wave of a wake, he blew past and there was no time, I turned the bow into the wave and said hang on, took the first one the bow dropped into the trough on the second, a foot of water rolled over bow, the bow dropped into the next and took 2 feet over the bow. The ride was over in seconds and boat settled low in the water swamped just below our knees. I turned on the bilge pump and told the family not to panic, we will find more dolphins!

Use the foam, run your wire in sealed PVC, spray all battery terminals and electrical connections with liquid tape. Because you will never see it coming!

Note you can go to Lowes/Home Depot and buy spray foam "Great Stuff" 1 can will do around 1 cubic foot, it is around 3 to 4 dollars a can for the red. 60 bucks will get you around 20 cubic feet of foam, the blue can cost more but will not build as much pressure. Every Lowes should have at least a hundred cans. Do it in stages, watch the pressure, wear gloves, and don?t blow your deck out.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

All, I can and will say is...

Great Stuff foam has absolutely NO PLACE in any boat of any kind! But then again, I am a DUMB OKIE!!!!

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

All, I can and will say is...

Great Stuff foam has absolutely NO PLACE in any boat of any kind! But then again, I am a DUMB OKIE!!!!

A dumb okie that knows you don't put that crap in your boat. Great stuff is NOT for boats.

 

[Decker83]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

I would have to agree with woodonglass and cadwelder on that statement. No Great Stuff.

 

[dgarner]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

Yeah "Great Stuff" won't be anywhere in my boat. If I'm going to be putting all this effort into re-building the rotted wood, I'm not going to cheap out and use Great Stuff.

 

[Salt Shaker 88]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

WOW! I figured this would be the reaction to putting empty soda bottles in the bilge. Some people don?t like spray foam, I love it and use it a lot in my boat. It is perfect to glue in foam blocks that will be formed in to complex shapes and glassed over, you can connect several feet of tygon tubing and use it to fill rat holes. Best of all it is around 4 dollars a cubic foot! The only down side I have found is with the delivery system, the can uses propane as a motive force to push it out and a pressure source to maintain it in a semi liquid state. Depending on the temperature outside you can get varied results due to the expansion of the propane that is trapped in the foam. This is the pressure issue that you have to be careful with if filling a closed compartment. This is what make these foams great for glue, once the foam expands you press in the blocks, the foam collapse and leaves a sticky mess (MDI) when this hardens, its better than gorilla glue.

The truth about spray foam. Great stuff is called a polyurethane foam, it is actually 4,4-Diphenylmethane-diisocyanate (MDI) CAS# 101-68-8.

The truth about pour foam. West Marine Ever Coat Foam it ($49.95 per cubic foot), it is Methlene-Bisphenyl-isoccyanate (MDI) CAS# 101-68-8.

Synonyms: p,p'-Diphenylmethane diisocyanate;Isocyanic acid, methylenedi-p-phenylene ester;p,p'-Methylenebis[phenyl isocyanate];Bis(p-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Bis(1,4-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Bis(4-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Caradate 30;Desmodur 44;Diphenylmethane diisocyanate;Diphenylmethane p,p'-diisocyanate;Diphenylmethane 4,4'-diisocyanate;Hylene M 50;Isonate 125 MF;Isonate 125M;Methylenebis[p-phenyl isocyanate];Methylenebis[p-phenylene isocyanate];Methyl

Chemical compounds can be described in many different ways:

Molecular formula, Structure diagram, Systematic names, Generic names, Proprietary or trade names, and Trivial names.

A CAS Registry Number, however, is unique and specific to only one substance regardless of how many other ways the substance can be described.

Governmental agencies have found CAS Registry Numbers ideal for keeping track of substances:

They are unique, They can be validated quickly and reliably, They are internationally recognized.

Once the volatile chemicals leave the hardened foam it is all just MDI in the end. The only difference is the application and price.

"Trust me I work for the government"

 

[Salt Shaker 88]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

The blue can will not make as much pressure due to using Chlorodifluoromethane better known as R-22 (Freon) as a propellant instead of Propane.

 

[aspenshayn]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

ok, so my 2 liters will not be going in. Neither will Great Stuff. After recalculating the area I have to fill (which is very little in the old style ski boats) I have enough for the job. I agree that cutting corners just becuase I want it done so I can use it for the 4th of July is not good thinking. Since I rebuilt the boat from the hull up including the motor and tranny, I should make it right.

Fun thread, though))

 

[dgarner]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

ok, so my 2 liters will not be going in. Neither will Great Stuff. After recalculating the area I have to fill (which is very little in the old style ski boats) I have enough for the job. I agree that cutting corners just becuase I want it done so I can use it for the 4th of July is not good thinking. Since I rebuilt the boat from the hull up including the motor and tranny, I should make it right.

Fun thread, though))

For me it's the poly 2 part foam or nothing at all. I don't like the noodles, bottles, pink sheets, etc.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

WOW! I figured this would be the reaction to putting empty soda bottles in the bilge. Some people don?t like spray foam, I love it and use it a lot in my boat. It is perfect to glue in foam blocks that will be formed in to complex shapes and glassed over, you can connect several feet of tygon tubing and use it to fill rat holes. Best of all it is around 4 dollars a cubic foot! The only down side I have found is with the delivery system, the can uses propane as a motive force to push it out and a pressure source to maintain it in a semi liquid state. Depending on the temperature outside you can get varied results due to the expansion of the propane that is trapped in the foam. This is the pressure issue that you have to be careful with if filling a closed compartment. This is what make these foams great for glue, once the foam expands you press in the blocks, the foam collapse and leaves a sticky mess (MDI) when this hardens, its better than gorilla glue.

The truth about spray foam. Great stuff is called a polyurethane foam, it is actually 4,4-Diphenylmethane-diisocyanate (MDI) CAS# 101-68-8.

The truth about pour foam. West Marine Ever Coat Foam it ($49.95 per cubic foot), it is Methlene-Bisphenyl-isoccyanate (MDI) CAS# 101-68-8.

Synonyms: p,p'-Diphenylmethane diisocyanate;Isocyanic acid, methylenedi-p-phenylene ester;p,p'-Methylenebis[phenyl isocyanate];Bis(p-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Bis(1,4-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Bis(4-isocyanatophenyl)methane;Caradate 30;Desmodur 44;Diphenylmethane diisocyanate;Diphenylmethane p,p'-diisocyanate;Diphenylmethane 4,4'-diisocyanate;Hylene M 50;Isonate 125 MF;Isonate 125M;Methylenebis[p-phenyl isocyanate];Methylenebis[p-phenylene isocyanate];Methyl

Chemical compounds can be described in many different ways:

Molecular formula, Structure diagram, Systematic names, Generic names, Proprietary or trade names, and Trivial names.

A CAS Registry Number, however, is unique and specific to only one substance regardless of how many other ways the substance can be described.

Governmental agencies have found CAS Registry Numbers ideal for keeping track of substances:

They are unique, They can be validated quickly and reliably, They are internationally recognized.

Once the volatile chemicals leave the hardened foam it is all just MDI in the end. The only difference is the application and price.

"Trust me I work for the government"

It is EXTREMELY LOW density, West Marine is ONE of the HIGHEST Priced places to purchase two part pourable foam, Not sure What your experience is with foam in boat building but I would challenge you to find ANY reputable sources that would recommend GREAT STUFF for Floatation Foam in Boats, INCLUDING the MFG of GREAT STUFF.

 

[sschefer]

Re: No more foam (correction More Foam)

Woodonglass, I would tend to agree with you. I've asked about it several times and the answer is always no. It's not for use in a marine environment. It's use as a sealant is for insulating and airflow blocking purposes and not to block or stop water intrusion. Personally, I'd give it a wide berth.