not using marine starter.. should I replace?

[aggiedave98]

I told you I have a bunch of questions I've been holding onto...<br /><br />A couple of years ago, I got stuck on the lake b/c my key was stuck in the "start" position. It drained the battery and killed my starter. Being new to boating, I went to Oreilly w/ my starter and bought a new starter for like a 1970 Chevy Nova or something which was the same as in my boat. <br /><br />Now of course I know that I should have gotten a marine starter.<br /><br />At this point, I'm assuming I should just but a $260 marine starter and switch it out. But, it sounds like some folks here are cautious and other are not so cautious... should I go ahead and replace my automotive starter even though it works fine?<br /><br />I DO NOT want to take a chance getting stuck on the water though.

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Absolutely replace it with a marine starter.<br />The reason is simple, automotive starters are not ignition protected (Sealed) to prevent ignition of any explosive fumes that may collect in the bilge. Gas fumes could build from leaks in the gas tank (VERY common in older boats), leaky automotive fuel pumps, or even changing a fuel filter could get a little gas in the bilge.<br />Many of the marine parts that should not be replaced by automotive are: Distributor, carburator, fuel pump, alternator, and of course your starter.

 

[trog100]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

"Gas fumes could build from leaks in the gas tank (VERY common in older boats)"<br /><br />if it is it bloody well shouldnt be...<br /><br />praps if boaters are so bloody stupid as to have leaky fuel tanks on a regular basis they deserve to get blown up by automotive starters..<br /><br />cant help but feel that the priorities are back to front here.. praps we should be paying more attention to just how those explosive gases get in the bilge in the first place as opposed to how to stop igniting em when they do..<br /><br />u talk about it as if it justs happens and is the norm..<br /><br />dont be stupid enough to spill gas into the bilges and dont be stupid enough not to check your old gas tank for leaks.. i recon we are paying attention to the wrong end of things here..<br /><br />just voicing my thoughts on this "safety" thing.. <br /> <br />trog100

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

if it is it bloody well shouldnt be...

Shouldn't be is right, but fact is, it is. Not eveybody has the ability to avoid catastrophies and do as the damned well please like you.<br />The aluminum tanks get water in them, and water around them, for year after year and suddenly on a trip you end up with some gas in a bilge while out water sking. Then if you are real lucky when you start the engine to get the skier back up on the skis again, the explosion just blows you over board and you live to tell it, along with everyone else in the boat. I guess he should open the engine hatch and sniff every friggin time he starts the engine..... right???<br />I replace about a dozen tanks a year due to corrosion that has gone through the tank, either from the inside or out, and gas suddenly starts leaking without anyone knowing about it. We also have a boat explode or burn each year....usually older ones.<br />I know your main purpose in life is to contradict everything said here, especially if I say it, and that's fine, but stop preaching your BS as something eveyone should do.

 

[rabidfish]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Not to mention hydrogen fumes from the battery being charged...<br /><br />I agree with Don, many fuel tanks with some age will eventually leak. We hope that the leak will be readily apparent, and that no one will be harmed in the "interm". Statistics prove it doesn't always happen that way and thinking any other way is simply naive...<br /><br />AND... I agree with Trog. It shouldn't be that way!<br /><br />Having said that... Certainly change the starter out. You should be able to find that starter for about $150-175 somewhere...

 

[rodbolt]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

trog<br /> our rules and regulations are rather restrictive here. will it blow up anytime the key is hit? most likly not, but like an overheat sometimes ya only get one chance. I would look for a reman or the new hy-torque starter that is rated for marine. that way if the investigation as to how it blew and burned 7 other boats at the fuel dock and killed two shows it was a non ign protected device you have the tag and the reciept that shows it was supposed to be and the laweyers get to chase a differnt rabbit.all us proffesionals are trying to ask is please do it correctly. this aint a car. would I do it to save my weekend on my personal boat? yep. I even assisted a man once by telling him which chevy starter fit his big block and gave him bolt by bolt instructions on how to change it with a notation that it was illegal and potentially dangeours. he had two days left on his week vacation and had trailered the boat almost 500 miles. worked out ok. after that he even paid me to store his boat for about 3 years and I replaced the 29 dollar advance auto unit with the correct one and did all the maint and winterizings. but when we are dealing with a safety issue and you shoot everyone down with no documentation it can be potentially dangerous to all. one some starters I played with about the only diff I could see was the part number,price and one had silicone around the solinoid. but if its my hands, my shop and my tools it gets the part with the SAE J numbers on it. I am with ya DonS on them tanks. its either water or a screw left under the tank and once was a wire tie head that chafed though the bottom.

 

[MrBill]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

The starter is the most likely engine component to cause a problem igniting fuel vapor because of sparking and its location in the engine compartment, particularly in older models with brushes making contact on the armature. Marine starters are sealed, in automotive starters they're open and the sparking can be seen...just like you'd see in a home appliance or tool like an electric drill. No doubt you've seen sparks inside one of these, that's what you've got down in your bilge. So that spark machine you put on your engine is just waiting for that one time you forget to use your blower, or a fuel line rupture, or something else...to say "GOTCHA"...BA BOOM !!!

 

[cuzner]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Every I/O boat I,ve owned or been around has a noticable smell of fuel in the bilge. My understanding is gas fumes are heavier than air, and collect in your bilge since it has no way to escape.My best guess is ( someone please correct me if I,m wrong) is any fuel left in carb at shutoff will evaporate and stay in your bilge.Blowers and sealed electrics prevent spark, and exlposions.<br /><br /> Jim

 

[trog100]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

i think u guys seem to miss my point.. i am talking safety here.. and if u have an old tank that might leak.. yes sniff the bugger every time u start your engine.. and especially if u are careless enough to spill gas in the bilge..<br /><br />and don u preach safety.. u preach change your manifolds before they leak u even have a life time kinda change out period for such things.. <br /><br />yet.. u leave a potential bomb on board that might kill all the occupants of the boat like a time expired potentially leak at any minute gas tank and think its par for the course and just happens..???<br /><br />aint a great deal of wonder we disagree is there.. he he he<br /><br />gas tanks dont leak by accident dude.. they leak cos they aint checked and maintained properly..<br /><br />we dont have a US coast guard to make sure we dont carry matches.. but we do have other bodies that dont let us carry bombs in the first place..<br /><br />UK boat safety starts with the gas tank.. it has to be good safe condition.. i cant even carry a spare fuel can on my boat without it being in a fire-proof locker properly vented and with a drain in case of leakage out to the outside of the boat..<br /><br />kinda interesting in a way.. two different approaches to safety.. the UK approach makes sure there is nothing that can catch fire and insists on a boat full of fire extinguishers just in case.. the US approach makes sure there aint no sparks to set on fire anything that can catch fire and is probably there to catch fire..<br /><br />from my point of view there really aint no justifiable reason to have "explosive gases" in your bilges from leaky old gas tanks or careless gas spillage..<br /><br />it might be the norm in america but its pretty crazy norm.. <br /><br />and if i seem casual about about none marine starters its cos i aint casual about makng sure i dont have any bombs on board..<br /><br />and don.. i dont do as i damn well like and get away with it.. i just have a different approach.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[cuzner]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Hey trog... I agree with you however my point is gas fumes may present even if everything else is working properly. As far as the safety issue goes between continets, the U.S.C.G does take safety VERY serious. I have had a "courtousy" inspection from the U.S. C.G. and they where very thoughrogh in their inspection, and helpful too, explained what they where looking for and why.Compare that to the Canadian coast guard who only look for liqour violations, and I would say our U.S. freinds have a very good safety program.Just my opinion though.<br /><br /> Jim

 

[lahiggs]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

What is the best way to go about checking a tank? Mine is under the floor (as is most probably), and I do not know how to inspect it. I do raise my motor cover everytime before I get in the water and check for fumes, the I run the blower religiously before starting and anytime I am below cruising speed.

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Posted By trog100<br />gas tanks dont leak by accident dude.. they leak cos they aint checked and maintained properly..

Posted by wvboater<br />What is the best way to go about checking a tank?

wvboater, that is a great question, perhaps the trog will explain exactly how he would go about checking a tank that is not accessable for inspection. It's just another of his "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull s*** " type answers.<br />Easy to say on a forum, impossible to do in real life.

 

[lahiggs]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

lol, don. I thought I might have been asking a dumb question, all I know is I have had one fire onboard due to faulty alternator, and I am not trying for another...

 

[aggiedave98]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

so what do you do if you ever have to replace the tank? Mine is also under the floor. Do you have to cut out the whole floor?? Then recarpet the whole thing? Is there anything to do to prevent tank damage/corrosion??

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Mine is also under the floor. Do you have to cut out the whole floor??

Yes, and it happens all the time.<br /><br />

Is there anything to do to prevent tank damage/corrosion?? <br />

NEVER, NEVER, Never get the boat or tank near water would be the best thing on a tank you can't see or get to.<br />HOWEVER! I'm quite sure trog100 has a method not known to the rest of us since he says regular inspection and maintenance is necessary. Personally, I'm not sure how or what is done, but when he replies to this post you will then find out.

 

[trog100]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

we are talking very bad boat design here aint we.. these boats with built in tanks are explosions waiting to happen.. if the boat is likely to outlast the tank its a stupid and dangerous way of building boats.. some time in a boats life that built in none inspectable gas tank is gonna leak..<br /><br />my boat is due soon for its mandatory safety inspection.. one "new" requirement is that the tank must be open (visible) to inspection and to be in good condition.. i am expecting problems cos my american built boat was in essence designed by an idiot.. it has a built in gas tank.. <br /><br />as time passes all these old "safety" problems are coming to light.. our "safety" regulations get tighter every year.. i am also gonna have to remove my bilge pump cos mounted in the only place it can be "its possible to accidenatlly discharge engine fluids into the enviroment".. my boat has only one set of bilges and the engine sits right in the middle of it.. course i will become a criminal and put the bugger back after its passed it inspection cos i wouldnt feel "safe" without one..<br /><br />my boats gas tank is right in the middle of my boat.. not in the bilges.. the boat could be fitted with naked flame cookers.. i smoke.. in fact many things could ignite explosive mixtures..<br /><br />okay in truth if i take safety really seriously instead of just playing at it.. i have only one option.. have the whole lot ripped out and replaced..<br /><br />what will i do in reality.. ignore the bloody thing.. hope it lasts out.. hope the guy who inspects my boat has a little sympathy and lets it thru without me having to spend a fortune digging it out for inspection..<br /><br />and the next time don when u take the **** by asking me if i think i know better than the manufacturers.. i will simply say yes..<br /><br />basically one thing reasures me while i ride my potential bomb.. gas stinks like hell and i am sure i can smell the slightest leak before i blow up the next time i light my cigarette..<br /><br />and just cos the problem is hard to fix.. dont mean it aint a problem.. and it dont mean we shouldnt fix it.. i wont dig my built-in covered in carpet 16 year old gas tank out.. but as we all know i am full of bull**** according to don... he he<br /><br />still having said all this i am still pretty confident that my nose will worn me soon enough and my bilges aint likely to fill with explosive gases without me knowing about it..<br /><br />course the big danger here is placing an over reliance on marine electrics to save the day.. if that built-in tank does start leaking and soaking into all that foam crap that a lot of modern boats are filled with.. gas disolves foam nicely by the way.. foam and gas is what makes napalm.. he he he<br /><br />as for batteries well that is something that can be dealt with.. they should be in a well ventilated compartment.. and not over charged cos thats when all the gas is given off..<br /><br />and for anyone that thinks the smell of gas is normal in a boat.. well u are living on borrowed time.. that built in tank (or something else) is probably already leaking.. he he<br /><br />my safety tip for the day is.. never ever ignore the smell of gas.. and have a regular sniff and a look around anything that might leak gas.. especially the bit of the tank u can see.. any leaks further back will waft out the holes where the pipes and wires come out..<br /><br />i never suggested not useing a marine starter by the way.. i just thought that folks might start to think.. spilling gas while changing filters and running boats with old leaky tanks was okay.. that explosive mixtures in bilges was okay.. provided of course only marine electrics are used.. basically everyone should do their best to make sure these mixtures aint in the bilges or anywhere else in their boat for thta matter.. if they dont they are at fault..<br /><br /><br />trog100<br /><br />ps.. having just read your post dont.. yes u should have them dug out and inspected if there is any doubt as to their condition.. your logic must follow thru.. else it become meaningless.. if the logic applies to every other thing u mention it must apply to gas tanks..<br /><br />me.. my logic does follow thru.. i rely on my nose and regular inspections and only replace things like manifolds and gas tanks when they leak not before as u preach.. <br /><br />so no longer in ignorance of the possible danger of badly fitted (its quite common) gas tanks.. the user takes his choice..

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

Surprise, surprise, no answer, just more talk.<br /><br />Must be a politician...... Can type great long responses and never say anything useful regarding the subject at hand.

 

[trog100]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

there is an aswer in the talk don.. if u want to see it.. if u dont.. well there isnt its just talk..<br /><br />we overlapped so praps u missed the ps..<br /><br />trog100

 

[trog100]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

aggiedave98.. the corrosion is caused by bad fitting.. if the tank is just dropped on the floor so to speak and poorly ventilated.. water kinda puddles under it and never dries out.. this forms a corrosion cell in essence and the tank rots thru from the outside quite quickly..<br /><br />sit it up on blocks.. leave a good ventilated air-space around it and it wont corrode..<br /><br />not all tanks are poorly fitted but a lot are.. not a lot u can do about it short of ripping the lot out and doing it properly which aint really a practical answer..<br /><br />trog100

 

[Don S]

Re: not using marine starter.. should I replace?

There was an answer to this thread trog, it was YES, replace the starter, not the long winded "Trog theory of how boating should be" that seems to accompany every thread you get involved with.