Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Excellent.

Thanks a lot! Thats what we'll do!

 

[Cinco]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Ah sorry Eric, was reading too many posts. I have always wanted to ride down the Grand. It seems like a completely overlooked water playground. I think the dangers of logs and such scare a lot of people.

Hardy is Great. 17 miles long, lots of places to explore, coves all over, tree swings, every boat imaginable, several places to gather and hang out, Party Cove, and Hot Boat Weekend! We put in at the state park, if you have a sticker, you can use the launch for free. Nice launch and easy parking. There are several private places, you pay anywhere from $5-$10. The county park is $6, but the launch is very steep.

Your going to run 100-1 all the time? Since all boating sites and info says 50-1, how are you going to do that, synthetic? I am a 2 stroke fan, and into the sleds too. I have been running synthetic in everything for years. Love having just one mix to use, and the smell is oh so lovely. I have run tons of chainsaws and taken them apart, and still impressed with the clean cylinders. I have not run boat motors with anything except oil designated as boat oil. I know you can't run boat oil in normal 2 stroke engines, due to the lower operating temps. Whats your plan? Maybe my Amsoil rep has an answer... I'm sure he'd love to sell me a couple gallons! I'm betting the answer is here to be searched, just though I'd ask while I was hijacking your thread.

Ordered the block off plate today. Also a fuel pump rebuild kit and a couple gaskets for the thermostats. The PO was running NO thermostats. I put 2 in, but forgot to order gaskets and they leak a lil. I think I can handle it, of course most of the time my friends threaten they are going to weld my toolbox shut!

Good luck on your repair.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Your going to run 100-1 all the time?

Don't even think about it... 50:1 no mater what TCW3 oil you mix in.

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Ah sorry Eric, was reading too many posts. I have always wanted to ride down the Grand. It seems like a completely overlooked water playground. I think the dangers of logs and such scare a lot of people.

Hardy is Great. 17 miles long, lots of places to explore, coves all over, tree swings, every boat imaginable, several places to gather and hang out, Party Cove, and Hot Boat Weekend! We put in at the state park, if you have a sticker, you can use the launch for free. Nice launch and easy parking. There are several private places, you pay anywhere from $5-$10. The county park is $6, but the launch is very steep.

Your going to run 100-1 all the time? Since all boating sites and info says 50-1, how are you going to do that, synthetic? I am a 2 stroke fan, and into the sleds too. I have been running synthetic in everything for years. Love having just one mix to use, and the smell is oh so lovely. I have run tons of chainsaws and taken them apart, and still impressed with the clean cylinders. I have not run boat motors with anything except oil designated as boat oil. I know you can't run boat oil in normal 2 stroke engines, due to the lower operating temps. Whats your plan? Maybe my Amsoil rep has an answer... I'm sure he'd love to sell me a couple gallons! I'm betting the answer is here to be searched, just though I'd ask while I was hijacking your thread.

Ordered the block off plate today. Also a fuel pump rebuild kit and a couple gaskets for the thermostats. The PO was running NO thermostats. I put 2 in, but forgot to order gaskets and they leak a lil. I think I can handle it, of course most of the time my friends threaten they are going to weld my toolbox shut!

Good luck on your repair.

NO!!!!!!! NO 100:1. I had said 100:1 at idle is 'supposed' to be about where your injection system is, and its 50:1 at WOT. My guess is that its more 75:1 or so at idle and 50:1 at WOT.

I'll be running 50:1 using either Penzoil or Quicksilver, depending on what one is available. Right now I've got about 2.5 gallons of Quicksilver, thats 5 tanks of gas if my calculations serve correctly (should be 2.67 oz per gal @ 50:1 I believe) so about 1/2 gallon per tank of fuel in my rig. Of course I'll measure it accuratley according to gallons put into the tank.

Perhaps if I get a free weekend we'll pull the boat up that way. If it happens I'll send you a message via the site here. I too have sleds, notice my sig!

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Between 55 and 60 at idle. It really all depends on how much fuel your using at idle, the pump is running off the crank so it's gonna give you a specific amount by engine RPM without regard for the amount of fuel going through the fuel pump. They've got it figured out pretty good though and the pumps do have some adjustment.

But hey... not to worry, that'll all be moot point in a couple of days..

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Between 55 and 60 at idle. It really all depends on how much fuel your using at idle, the pump is running off the crank so it's gonna give you a specific amount by engine RPM without regard for the amount of fuel going through the fuel pump. They've got it figured out pretty good though and the pumps do have some adjustment.

But hey... not to worry, that'll all be moot point in a couple of days..

Fair enough. I had just read/heard that they do lean out on oil as you idle. Which even 60:1 is better then a full 50:1 if thats truely what it is. I know my snowmobile's pump is set to run at 45:1 factory, but doing calcs its more like 32:1.

You are correct. I just secured most of Friday off of work so I can travel back home and get working on it! Hope the parts come from ProMarine Thursday like they are supposed to. My buddy with the timing light and knowledge to do the chore is comming Friday evening to get it done!

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Looking for explination here.

Manual says (just found a service manual thanks to this site!!!!) 21 degrees BTDC at cranking speed and 19 degrees at WOT.

So here is my question.
1) You've said I'm safe to go to 23 degrees btdc at WOT right? 4 degrees seems like a lot? Or does the 'advance modual' take it that high already?

2) For some reason at 'cranking speed' (300rpms right?) I wonder why 21 degrees is necessary?

Just looking for more opertunities to learn is all. Thanks!

-Eric

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Set your timing @21 and let it alone, the block you have is the best year model 2.0 liter made and makes more power above 6000 rpm than the newer relief slotted blocks. Setting at 23 is ok if you run WOT all the time but is way to advanced for todays fuel at 1/2-3/4 throttle cruising.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Looking for explination here.

Manual says (just found a service manual thanks to this site!!!!) 21 degrees BTDC at cranking speed and 19 degrees at WOT.

So here is my question.
1) You've said I'm safe to go to 23 degrees btdc at WOT right? 4 degrees seems like a lot? Or does the 'advance modual' take it that high already?

2) For some reason at 'cranking speed' (300rpms right?) I wonder why 21 degrees is necessary?

Just looking for more opertunities to learn is all. Thanks!

-Eric

1. 25 degrees (20 degrees after dwell) is a well known number for engines of this design. It has been refered to as a standard for 45 degree dwell engines. Check out Wikipedia for the defintion of dwell if you want.

2. I recommend 23 degrees because that is what I know to be safe. I've indexed cranks on these motors and know that they have some incosistencies. Merc knows this too and often compensates by jetting cylinders differently and modifying timing.

3. Who knows what the advance module is going to do. There are multiple failure points in that system. Merc no longer sells them and recommends removal rather than replacement. CDI has replacements. I can only assume its for those times when customers demand they be replaced and mechanics comply out of desparation. Just a guess.

4. My manual say's set WOT timing at cranking speed to 19 degrees. WOT at max RPM should then read 21 degrees on a healthy motor. Good luck checking that.

5. WOT timing and prop pitch are two different things but they can have the same effect of causing an engine to work harder than it needs too. An engine that is timed at or near it's maximum will have a greater potential to develop maximum HP and should have less difficulty achieving max RPM.

Of course, the engine has to be tuned correctly in all other respects also.

The final fine tuning setting is determined by reading your spark plugs or using Pyrometers to measure exhaust temp. Most just read the plugs. Recent developments have also given us O2 sensors that work on these motors and allow them to be tuned to even a higher degree. This requires the use of a dyno station since the O2 sensors become oiled and require often cleaning.

Does that explain it a little more clearly?

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Set your timing @21 and let it alone, the block you have is the best year model 2.0 liter made and makes more power above 6000 rpm than the newer relief slotted blocks. Setting at 23 is ok if you run WOT all the time but is way to advanced for todays fuel at 1/2-3/4 throttle cruising.

I def. do NOT run wide open all the time. Most of my boating is done at idle or between 25-35 mph (under 5k rpms most of the time) with the occasional 1/2 mile WOT burst or 'faster' burst. Boat seems to cruise really nice at 4500rpm's or so...

I too wondered about fuel concerns with detonation etc. I know our fuel is pretty crappy for snowmobiles ran in very cold temps, so I assumed that with warmer temps etc it'd be 'ok' for outboards, but likely still not as good as it was when the motor was built.

Over 6k??? YIPES! Mine turns about 5600 WOT trimmed out with 2 people in the boat. I don't think I should monkey with the prop at all, seems pretty good for doing all I want it to do.

1. 25 degrees (20 degrees after dwell) is a well known number for engines of this design. It has been refered to as a standard for 45 degree dwell engines. Check out Wikipedia for the defintion of dwell if you want.

2. I recommend 23 degrees because that is what I know to be safe. I've indexed cranks on these motors and know that they have some incosistencies. Merc knows this too and often compensates by jetting cylinders differently and modifying timing.

3. Who knows what the advance module is going to do. There are multiple failure points in that system. Merc no longer sells them and recommends removal rather than replacement. CDI has replacements. I can only assume its for those times when customers demand they be replaced and mechanics comply out of desparation. Just a guess.

4. My manual say's set WOT timing at cranking speed to 19 degrees. WOT at max RPM should then read 21 degrees on a healthy motor. Good luck checking that.

5. WOT timing and prop pitch are two different things but they can have the same effect of causing an engine to work harder than it needs too. An engine that is timed at or near it's maximum will have a greater potential to develop maximum HP and should have less difficulty achieving max RPM.

Of course, the engine has to be tuned correctly in all other respects also.

The final fine tuning setting is determined by reading your spark plugs or using Pyrometers to measure exhaust temp. Most just read the plugs. Recent developments have also given us O2 sensors that work on these motors and allow them to be tuned to even a higher degree. This requires the use of a dyno station since the O2 sensors become oiled and require often cleaning.

Does that explain it a little more clearly?

Definately. I'm learning, slowly but surely.

Here is a snipit that I just took out of the manual and where I got my info from. Maybe I read it wrong?

I like what faztbullet says about fuel quality and cruising speeds etc...That seems to make a lot of sense to me...

I like what faztbullet says about fuel quality and cruising speeds etc...That seems to make a lot of sense to me...

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

CDI has replacements. I can only assume its for those times when customers demand they be replaced and mechanics comply out of desparation. Just a guess.

Some of the earlier (88-91) 200 hp engines had modified port timing and needs the extra 4-6 degrees to get over the hump and go....

My manual say's set WOT timing at cranking speed to 19 degrees. WOT at max RPM should then read 21 degrees on a healthy motor. Good luck checking that.

Very easy check....test prop. Do this all the time on the Junkrudes on trailer at lake.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Some of the earlier (88-91) 200 hp engines had modified port timing and needs the extra 4-6 degrees to get over the hump and go.... yep.



Very easy check....test prop. Do this all the time on the Junkrudes on trailer at lake.

Do it myslef. OP needs a friend to come by and set the timing so I thought that might be stretching his graceousness a bit.

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

HAHAHA

I'm confused now.

So 21 or 23 degrees.....Any advantage or disadvantage to either of them? I'm looking for safe, reliable, and the same running its got now...

I will run 87 fuel, with Marine StaBil, and quicksilver TC-W3 mixed in.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

HAHAHA

I'm confused now.

So 21 or 23 degrees.....Any advantage or disadvantage to either of them? I'm looking for safe, reliable, and the same running its got now...

I will run 87 fuel, with Marine StaBil, and quicksilver TC-W3 mixed in.

87 was enough when that engine was built but due to reformulation, Merc now recommends a minimum of 89. There's a service bulletin out there about it.

Your engine will be fine if you set it to 21. You may not even notice taking it to 23. I can, but I sleep with my motors..

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

Minimum of 89 now eh? Well that definatley changes things. I'll have to use that from now on.

I usually try and shy away from higher grade fuels because they seem to 'stale' as not many people use them due to the added cost etc...

Just wanted to see where I should be at timing wise, I have heard too much can wreak havoc on cars etc...I can only assume its very similar here (timing is computer controled on my sled, so even though I've worked on the motor etc I've never messed with it). Too much timing coupled with poor fuel or water in fuel can lead to too much detonation correct?

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

What the SB# as I havent heard about this Merc's web site still states" United States and Canada
Use a major brand of automotive unleaded gasoline with a minimum-posted octane rating of 87. Leaded gasoline is not recommended. Performance Products will have different requirements, consult your Operation, Maintenance and Warranty Manual."

 

[j_martin]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

The advance module on the XR4 theory goes like this:

At 5000 rpm, timing is advanced 4 degrees.
At 5500 rpm, timing is retarded 6 degrees (net -2)
It does it by pulling bias toward ground to advance, away from ground to retard.

On fuel, with the advance module, the engine is running at Set WOT timing plus maybe a degree (bias hysteresis), which would be about 20 degrees at half throttle. At high speed, the timing advances to 24 degrees, and then retards to 18 degrees, which is one (of many) reasons they hit the wall in the high fives. (the others are breathing and port timing)

Without the advance module, I find that If I"m running off road gas, which is 91 octane no alcohol here, at 23 degrees it runs real sweet through the range, and will pull to a little over 6 grand with ease. I suspect it'd rattle a little with 87 octane gasohol, both on octane and fuel mixture (energy content) issues.

So, to answer yer question, I would set WOT timing to 21 degrees if I were running 87 octane, and 23 degrees if I were running 91 octane. Any more makes no discernable difference. I set up manual bias manipulation once to test it out.

hope it helps
John

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

The advance module on the XR4 theory goes like this:

At 5000 rpm, timing is advanced 4 degrees.
At 5500 rpm, timing is retarded 6 degrees (net -2)
It does it by pulling bias toward ground to advance, away from ground to retard.

On fuel, with the advance module, the engine is running at Set WOT timing plus maybe a degree (bias hysteresis), which would be about 20 degrees at half throttle. At high speed, the timing advances to 24 degrees, and then retards to 18 degrees, which is one (of many) reasons they hit the wall in the high fives. (the others are breathing and port timing)

Without the advance module, I find that If I"m running off road gas, which is 91 octane no alcohol here, at 23 degrees it runs real sweet through the range, and will pull to a little over 6 grand with ease. I suspect it'd rattle a little with 87 octane gasohol, both on octane and fuel mixture (energy content) issues.

So, to answer yer question, I would set WOT timing to 21 degrees if I were running 87 octane, and 23 degrees if I were running 91 octane. Any more makes no discernable difference. I set up manual bias manipulation once to test it out.

hope it helps
John

Agree.

 

[mxzeatr]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

The advance module on the XR4 theory goes like this:

At 5000 rpm, timing is advanced 4 degrees.
At 5500 rpm, timing is retarded 6 degrees (net -2)
It does it by pulling bias toward ground to advance, away from ground to retard.

On fuel, with the advance module, the engine is running at Set WOT timing plus maybe a degree (bias hysteresis), which would be about 20 degrees at half throttle. At high speed, the timing advances to 24 degrees, and then retards to 18 degrees, which is one (of many) reasons they hit the wall in the high fives. (the others are breathing and port timing)

Without the advance module, I find that If I"m running off road gas, which is 91 octane no alcohol here, at 23 degrees it runs real sweet through the range, and will pull to a little over 6 grand with ease. I suspect it'd rattle a little with 87 octane gasohol, both on octane and fuel mixture (energy content) issues.

So, to answer yer question, I would set WOT timing to 21 degrees if I were running 87 octane, and 23 degrees if I were running 91 octane. Any more makes no discernable difference. I set up manual bias manipulation once to test it out.

hope it helps
John

Agree.

Thank you both!

No matter the octane its all gasohol here unless paid 5.00 a gallon at the marinas, which just isn't going to happen.

I am running about 5600rpm's with the motor/prop right now, may be 5700rpm trimmed out lower fuel tank. I'd love to get a SS prop for it, that may take it down a tid bit.

21 degrees it will be. Thank you all very much. Parts come Thursday, Friday off to pull the stuff off, Friday 4pm timing appointment, Saturday water test!

Thanks again!

 

[sschefer]

Re: Oil Alarm Woes......1987 150HP v6 BlackMax

What the SB# as I havent heard about this Merc's web site still states" United States and Canada
Use a major brand of automotive unleaded gasoline with a minimum-posted octane rating of 87. Leaded gasoline is not recommended. Performance Products will have different requirements, consult your Operation, Maintenance and Warranty Manual."

I saw a scanned copy on either here or s&f but can't find it now. I wouldn't have mentioned if I didn't think it was legit. Makes sense since E-10 fuel burns as much as 3% faster than MTBE but by some miracle of science and marketing maintains the same octane rating.

For those of you who don't know what octane means it's not something that gets added to fuel it's a measurment. That's kind of hard to understand but belive it when I say that Octane boosters/additives are bogus and have been proven as such. The only thing that has been proven to modify the octane rating is a catalyst product called Aces. You can research it on the internet at: http://www.americancleanenergysystems.com/ This stuff works!