Old Rude won't pull?

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Can anyone tell me what the part number of the head gasket for this motor might be?

Supposing I put a new heli coil on the new spark plug could I use loctite on the heli coil so I don't have the chance of it coming out again and ruining the threads that are there in the head now?


Thanks
Lowell

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Well all it has SPARK! I pulled and pulled but my spark plug tester wouldn't show spark. I think it is the tester. So I decided to try it old school, plugged a screw driver into the plug socket and held on to the screw driver while I pulled the rope. You can take my word for it, it's got SPARK! No pain no gain, right? I've been bitten by the old 5hp push mower and believe me it's got nothing on this motor. So from here I would think I'll start on the fuel system.

I'll be to first to admit I know nothing about carburetors. I don't even know where to start. Any pointers? Also I'm still looking for the item number for the head gasket, can anyone help with that too?

I also pulled off all of the side covers mentioned above and everything looks fine to me. The ends of the piston rods that I can see look nice and shiny, so I will assume that the cranks would look the same.

thanks for all the help,

Lowell

 

[freddyray21]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

http://www.laingsoutboards.com/newp...ncludes Gale, Sea King up to 1963, and others has your head gasket. I don't think I boats carries it.

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Thanks for the link, I'll give them a call tomorrow. I called iBoats but I forgot the serial number.

I was thinking, is there a way that you can monitor the crank case oil? Does this motor even have crank case oil? Also should I replace the impeller? would it be safe to get the motor up and running before I replace the impeller, thus making sure the engine it viable before I put even more money into it.

Can anyone give me any pointers on where and how to start on the carburetor?

I was seriously thinking about putting on the new head gasket and giving it a shot of starter fluid just to try to give myself a shot in the ego.. lol

Thanks
Lowell

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

I'd at least pull the lower unit and take a look at the water pump impeller and see if it had fins missing or how rotten or hardened the fins on the impeller were. If they weren't flexible, I'd replace it before I ran the motor in order to prevent impeller pieces from having a chance to go up the tube and get stuck, or worse, get hung up in the water jackets. It won't take but a few minutes at the most for that motor to overheat and ruin itself if the water pump is faulty.
As to the starter fluid, I'd mix myself up some fuel/oil mix in a spray bottle so your motor would have a little lube in it on startup for the crank bearings and such. That motor has NO crankcase oil. The only oil a 2-stroke motor receives is from the tiny droplets of oil in the fuel. That's why it's so important to use 24:1 oil mix in your motor. It needs a lot of oil.
As for the carburetor, just remove it, take the bowl off, blow out ALL the tiny passages through the carb. and make sure all varnish and trash is out. I'd replace the float with a plastic float if laing's has one, and a new float needle and seat which will come with the carb kit. I'd be careful to get all the old packing out from the openings the high and low speed mixture needle valves fit in, and replace with new packing. Those carbs are very simple and it would be hard to booger it up. DO NOT tighten those needle valves too hard or they will be ruined and the motor will never run right. Be sure to pay special attention to how the float sits so you will know how put the new one in.
GOod luck,
JBJ

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Thanks again for the input all. This evening was productive. It was raining and I didn't really feel like hauling out more junk from the rental, so after dinner I worked on the ol'rude. Here is the carb before I pulled it off. I'll only post one pic although I took lots to be sure I get it back on correctly.

Here is what I found when I took the bowl off. Yuk!

I called Lansing and they have the parts that I need for the carb and the head gasket. I hope to order them later next week. I then decided to take it a step further and be sure I got all the crud out of the intake manifold too.

I took it off and cleaned it up. Removed all the little doo dads and cleaned them all out and off. There was quite a bit of crud behind the area circled in green. Is this the actual intake line that takes fuel to the piston head? Is there anyway that I can clean these out? If I blow them out and pour the carb cleaner to them will this hurt anything? In a few days I'll reinstall everything and tighten them up. I was surprised to see how simple this carb actually is. I was really intimidated about it but there's not much to it. I took one screw out at a time and attacked it very slowly and I think it went well. I do plan on ordering the carb kit but I hope to get it to kick over first. (MAKES CONVINCING MAMA THAT IT'S WORTH THE MONEY, LOL)

As for the oil on the bearings and such. I noticed that you can see the inside of the crank case with the intake manifold off and I could see the cranks amd they looked nice and clean and shinny. I did put a few drops of Marvel's mystery oil with a syringe on the bearings. I figure I couldn't hurt anything.

 

[freddyray21]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

the green circle area is a check valve. it is needed to give constant pressure to pressurize the fuel tank. It can be removed and carb cleaner can be used in the intake, but not the valve as it is a hard rubber and you can destroy it with carb cleaner. You will need to reinstall it if you are running a pressure tank. If converting to a fuel pump it is left out and one side blocked off to convert pressue to pulse, but that is a different topic.

 

[HybridMX6]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Any just FYI: You can see the inside of the crankcase because that is how the motor oils itself. A 2 cycle "scavenges" to run, so it draws the oil/fuel mix into the crankcase, then it flows through the ports in the cylinder and into the actual cylinder between the piston and spark plug. It is then compressed and ignited, then exhausted, and it starts all over again. The inside crankcase is oiled as the fuel/oil mix enters the crankcase. This is why the proper oil ratio is so vital. Not enough in the mix is the equivalent of running your car or truck on half the recommended oil capacity, and will lead to under-lubrication and eventual failure.
(Please correct me if I am wrong, that's just my understanding of how it works)

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Now it makes more sense. I suppose I've never really thought about how a 2 cycle engine runs before.

Thanks
Lowell

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Well I reinstalled the carb and everything this evening. I was able to find another heli coil to match the old one on the lower plug. I checked the compression of the lower cylinder and I have about 100# there as well.

i pulled off the lower unit to check out the impeller. It all came off ok. There is a bad gasket that I can clearly see on top of the water pump housing. I'll post some pics later this weekend.

At this point I'm preparing to oder some parts, but I would like to hear your thoughts. This thing is old, but it has reasonable compression, the carb was in unusually good shape, the bearings look good and the cranks appear clean, and it is getting spark. Would you guys spend the money on it? I figure by the time it;s all said and done it'll cost me about another $100.00 in parts (head gasket, carb kit, impeller, new sprocket for the flywheel, new engaging pins for the pull cord and possibly a new water pump housing). What do you think?

Thanks,
Lowell

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Here's my thoughts as I was reading your last post:
1. Where are you going to get a recoil assembly cheap if you don't have one? You're unlikely to find just the pawls for a reasonable price.
2. Have you checked the play in the wrist pins?
3. How confident are you in your compression gauge accuracy? 100psi isn't that great in that motor. Not that it wouldn't run, just not that great. In a nice one, you'd have 115 or better. But again, how confident are you in your gauge? It could easily be off 15 or 20 psi.
4. You haven't yet verified that your lower unit gears and clutch dog will handle full power. Will they? Who knows without taking it apart, and if you don't know what to look for, you still won't know.....
5. Do you have a pressure tank in good shape for the motor?
6. Is there any evidence of anyone trying to beat the flywheel off with a hammer? --if it's warped, then the motor will vibrate badly.

THose are just some things I was thinking about....
I would be worried I'd drop 100 bucks or more in the motor and it would have borderline compression and not be as easy to crank as I'd like, or have so much wear in the wrist pins it would knock a little and sound bad/not last long, or I'd get it all running good and then find out my lower unit was bad costing me even more dough.
I don't know if I'd invest 100 in it or not, but that's all up to you. Those old motors can be money pits that you'd never get back upon selling it after putting all your hard work into it. So don't think if you get it running good you'll ever get the money you invested back. If you fix it, fix it to keep it for yourself, knowing it's really not worth more than $250 in good running condition.
You asked-----this is just some stuff to think about........:redface:
JBJ

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Here are a few things. I removed the lower unit and the impeller is in good shape, no chips, cracks, and it is still really pliable.

Contrary to my better judgment I did try to get it to kick over this evening just to make myself feel better about the whole thing. I figured that there was enough oil on the bearings and such I figured I try some starter fluid.

First I tried shooting it through the carb and got nothing. I tried a little shot in each plug and nothing. Every once and a while it would act like it wanted to kick over and I'd get a puff of exhaust but still nothing.

For you guys who are more versed in this stuff is this typical with no gas in the carb?

I'm kind of bummed now. I was hoping this thing would work out on my old abused fishing boat. I guess I need to invest in a good ignition spark tester. I know if you hold the wire and pull the rope you'll get NAILED but maybe it's not enough.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Lowell

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

You can get a good spark tester for $6 at autozone.
I would almost bet you have bad spark if it won't crank with a shot of fuel in the carb throat. You really should stay clear of that starter fluid, though. It's common for a weak coil to push a spark through open air but not in the cylinders with oil and fuel in the cylinder. It should jump at least a 1/4 inch gap with a nice blue/white spark on the spark tester. Have you pulled the flywheel yet? Have you got the plug wires crossed? If the flywheel key is broken and the flywheel has spun a little, then your timing will be off and it will not crank.
Later,
JBJ

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Jb,

Can you walk me through how to pull the flywheel? I would assume that you remove the bolt on top and work it off that way?

Thanks,
Lowell

 

[crxess]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

My 6hp was acting like yours. Carb rebuild, new plugs and a replacement head gasket.
After pulling the flywheel, I found the points to be way to tight. Once cleaned and adjusted it starts right up.

you need a 3 finger puller, 3 grade 8 bolts about 2" long and a lot of patients. Pull flywheel nut and remove the washer/cover. screw the nut back on to flush. Spray a bit of PB Blast aroung the shaft to help free it up. Tighten the puller and use a rubber hammer to TAP the flywheel or a brass hammer to slap the puller center bolt. tighten some more.........repeat.

To help hole the flywheel, I use a 1" ratchet strap and place a large plastic screwdriver handle against the powerhead. Between the head and ratchet.

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=294072

THis thread may prove helpful, as are several others in the "top secret files" thread at the top of this forum.
Later,
JBJ

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Thanks for the intell guys. Between the 2 posts I think I can pull it off....no pun intended lol.

I was able to come up with a decent spark tester and I don't think I'm getting a strong enough spark? I know it will knock the crap out of you as is but apparently it's not enough.

I'll start pulling it maybe tomorrow and I'll keep you all posted.

My next question is are the ignition parts (coils, points, condensers, etc.) still able to be gotten?

I just also want to take a minute to again say thanks for all the help, I would never be able to pull off something like this with out the help, let's hope it works...lol


Thanks
Lowell

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

You can go to laingsoutboards.com and get the part #'s, then plug them into iboats search thingy and get them from iboats, or just get them from laings.
Probably about 80-100 bucks total.
JBJ

 

[OhioLowell]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Ok gang here is the progress for this evening. I was able to get the flywheel pulled. The harmonic stabilizer puller worked great. Took a few whacks from a rubber mallet to break it loose the first time. Thanks for the warning about them hitting you in the face! lol

Here is what I found under the flywheel.

There was what looked like a whole family of moths and other crap under there. I blew out all the junk and readjusted the points (this was the 1st time I've ever done this) and cleaned up everything.

Now for the good part...... I now have spark on the top cylinder!!!! whoo hoo!!!! (that's 1/2 way !!) I still don't have any spark on the bottom cylinder. I took the flywheel back off and traced the plug wire back to one of the coils and removed the coil and it was seperated from the plug wire all together.

Is there anyway to test this coil to see if it's still good? I'm going to follow your advise and cut off a 1/2" of the plug wire and try to reinstall it and see if I get any spark. If not I'll replace all the guts on that side of the flywheel.

Can you tell me what the torque for the fly wheel for this motor is?

Thanks again,
Lowell

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Old Rude won't pull?

Flywheel nut torque is 45 foot-lbs. No grease or oil on the hub or spindle of the crank.
There is a procedure to test the coil. I'll see if I can find it. Your coils don't look bad as far as I can see, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. If you found the wire wasn't in the coil, that's probably the problem. Don't forget, even a fingerprint on those points can booger them up. Gotta be clean! That's why I always pop the flywheel off before I trust a 50's OMC, even if it runs great when I get it (which only 1 has, so far).
Later,
JBJ