OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

[Lou C]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

What he should be doing is looking at an OMC shop manual (or even an aftermarket one) that will prove that whoever did the work in his shop made a mistake. That is the only issue, it is a known problem if you do not fill it right. <br />Don't business owners have insurance (or can opt to) to cover the mistakes of their employees?<br />There is no area for subjectivity here, if I can fill it right the first time ever working on an outdrive (and anyone else who read the manual could too!!) then this is just not checking for the right information on their part.

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

If you have him listening to you, you probably will not need court action. You might want to pay an attorney $100 to look at your case and be prepared. Consulting with a local attorney is the only way to know what might prevail in your jurisdiction---remember, common sense and fairness have little to do with trial outcomes.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

P.V. stated above that one of the "tell-tale" indicators of damage due to too low OD oil level was that the upper gears are toast, and that the rear support bearing for the input shaft, located at the aft of the upper housing, will be "blued" from lack of oil!!!<br /><br />They didn't show me any of the bearings but did show me the gears and claimed that because they weren't 'blackened' the damage couldn't have been due to the low level of gear oil they left in the drive. <br /><br />I saw that the gears were torn up but not 'black'. However the lighting wasn't very good (it was indoors and the drive was in a box) and based on their terminology I was looking for true black. I wouldn't have necessarily noted if they were 'blued' vs just dark grey. I do know they weren't a shiny metalic. So I honestly can't say if the gears themselves were 'blued' or not and the old drive has since been sent to the rebuilder. <br /><br />Is it posible in a case like this that something else might go first leaving the gears damaged but not 'blued'? If so, that part of the shops argument becomes moot regardless of whether the gears were 'blued' or not, which we will not be able to definitively determine one way or the other at this point.<br /><br />Thanks for bearing with me, I'm still looking for an equitable way to resolve this with the shop and I think some of the responses from this forum might help.

 

[stealurface]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

lakelivin - I have 5.0l Merc woth Alpha outdrive on it. <br /><br />Question - this whistling noise - did you hear it when it was reving in N? Mine has started to do that, but when in gear I hear nothing. It shift A O K too.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

In a few of the cases of gear damage from improper gearcase filling, the gear steel was not discolored, but the teeth were flared out enough so that the pinion and driven gear teeth would not mesh. One unit "flared out" the teeth so much that they could not be removed from the upper housing.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Chasmo- the whining noise from mine was only present when I put it into gear. It was definitely a gear problem not an engine one.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

cobra drives use v4 and v6 Lower units.They hold about 26 ounces if they are outboards.Cobras have an <br />upper gearcase that holds more oil.Usually 60 to 64 ounces<br />DHP

 

[P.V.]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Ok, read my lips.... They F%#'d up your OD. There's no ifs, ands, or BUTTS!!!!!! They admitted to filling the OD incorrectly. There wasn't enough oil in the OD. The upper gears WILL and DID fail in short order!! It doesn't mean "squat" HOW the upper gears "looked", they were gone, trashed, beyound explainable!!! Folded over, teeth flared and "pointy", Whatever!! It was the fault of the first boat shop who DOES NOT KNOW what they're doing and if they're filling other Cobra's the wrong way, then they're having the same conversation with other customers!!! But, you agreed to pay the cost of the gears and bearing, not the complete upper. Those schmucks are taking advantage of their screw-up!! They feel that it's "fair" for "them" that they should not make any profit on this deal (boy, aren't they nice guys??), but you on the other hand continue to shell out more bucks! They should pay the difference between what you agreed to pay (gears/ bearings) and the cost of the complete upper!!! Again, it's their problem not yours! Ask, them who is the company who is providing the "warranty" for the upper. Give us the name and I'll tell you how much those yahoos paid for it!! The right thing to do is to... do the right thing! Say they're sorry and pay the whole thing, it shouldn't mean you participate... they should be happy you agreed to the gears and bearings (you sholdn't have,but did!)!!!!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

hello<br /> I am not meaning to bust any chops. I have seen more techs with problems filling a cobra unit. most factory service reps dont get it either. anyway what I am trying to say is have all your documents. witness's and service manuals. if the certified tech that dissasembled and inspected it will testify would be a help. having been a party to a lot of cases and a defendant in a few( never lost one) I can tell you that workorder documentation or lack of, will assist. did they write down the fluid Oz of oil added? I always do. saves time later. so get all your documentation ready. get your witness's ready. the gears or at least pictures of them would be nice. and above all do seem mad or accusatory. smile a lot and be dressed nice and polite. and Hope the judge is not sleeping. I was testifying once and the judge had his eyes closed and was nodding.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

rodbolt,<br />Glad you brought this back to the surface,I just wish we had a conclusion ! <br /><br />Also wish I had seen the gears.<br /><br />DHP

 

[seahorse5]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Don't say that anyone told you to call, but contact customer service at 847-689-7090 and you talk to a tech person. Give them your engine serial number and ask what would happen if someone filled a Cobra Drive from the bottom instead of the middle like the manual says to. Then ask them to fax you a statement saying that.<br /><br />This may take a bit of doing, ask if you could speak to someone familiar with Cobra drives. I can't name names, but some know them well.<br /><br />Bombardier does not have tech support on the Cobra drives, but they may help you out if you tell them the problems that you had.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Sorry guys, been meaning to update this. It came up in a discussion with Rodbolt in another thread a couple of days ago, ( http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=009722 ). I mentioned that I was gonna reopen this thread & update but he beat me to it. <br /><br />Bottom line is that we couldn't reach an agreement. I showed the owner this post, which has almost unanimous agreement that the damage was caused because they returned the boat with the gearcase oil so low (24-28 oz short of the 64 oz capacity). His response was that mechanics almost always side against the shop. He still maintained that the damage wasn't caused cause the oil was so low but because of an unrelated failure due to the age of the boat (15 years old, but only 416 hours) and that it was purely coincedental that it happpened within a day of them returning it low on oil. He also claims that the fact that the drive didn't completely freeze up and that I was able to drive it for another 17 hours tht summer indicates that the damage wasn't due to the low oil level after they serviced it. <br /><br />As I mentioned above, I asked the owner if he was open to considering any more info I could provide from independent 'experts'. He said he'd be interested to see what Stuart Hastings had to say (I'd printed out the info on Cobras from Stuart's site and given it to him previously). So I emailed Stuart (after first getting agreement from the owner that my summary of what had happened was fair and accurate). I'll copy the email I received back from Stuart in another post below, because of it's length. The owner discounted Stuart's opinion as well because Stuart noted that he isn't a mechanic (no comment on the logic & content of Stuart's response, however).<br /><br />So I respectfully told the owner since we couldn't reach an agreement my only choice was to seek 'arbitration' (small clamis court). I've got a claim filed and the hearing is Feb. 1st. <br /><br />Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of the gears; my uppper drive has long since been returned to the company he got the rebuilt drive from. I did get a notarized statement from the owner of the shop I took it to for service this spring (they found the damaged gears & bearings) stating that the damage is consistent with running the drive low on oil. He's an hour and a half away, so I can't get him there in person, but they are OMC certified with over 20 years experience...<br /><br /><br />Seahorse, thanks, I did call Bombardier tech support a couple of months ago. I was able to talk to a rep who was familiar with Cobras, and he verified that you stand a good chance of frying the gears/bearings if you fill from the drain plug instead of the fill plug. Unfortunately he said he couldn't give me anything in writing because of liability issues (apparently they had a problem with this in the past).<br /><br />Rodbolt, also thanks for the tips. One question: you stated above "and above all do seem mad or accusatory...". Did you mean DON'T seem mad or accusatory or DO seem mad and accusatory?

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Edit 1/22:<br />This post is getting very long. Since my email & response from Stuart Hastings duplicates much of the information I've already posted above, I moved it to a seperate topic (link below). That way it's available for anyone interested, but doesn't stretch out this post any more than necessary.<br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=009750#000000

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

I'd like to bring this thread with me as evidence in the case. I realize that in civil court it probably wouldn't be of much use. But my understanding of small claims court is that a different level of evidence is allowed and the judge will allocate credence to the evidence as he/she sees fit. <br /><br />I can document this as a verifiable forum thats been in existence for awhile. I can also show independence from the forum prior to this post (i.e., this was my first post).<br /><br />P.V. and seahorse, you've both rebutted one of the owners specific claims. Are either of you liscensed mechanics? If so, can I ask how long, if you're OMC certified, etc? I'm hoping that some information might add more credibility (from the court's perspective) as to your responses.

 

[P.V.]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Lakeliven, Yes I am/was OMC certified for Cobra probably two or three times at factory schools in the mid/late 80's and early 90's.OMC "Master Tech" in '89. I work'd, at that time, for the largest Johnson Outboard dealership west of the Missippi. We sold and serviced many, many Cobras and Mercruisers. Seeing outdrive problems on either is/was not unheard of. Some by normal "wear and tear", abuse/neglect on behalf of the customer, and some by "shade tree" mechanics (some who actually "work" at what you would say is a "boat dealer"). In 1989, I was the Pac. NW field service tech rep for all Evinrude and Cobra dealers in Alaska, Washington Idaho and western Montana. All warrantys from those dealers came across my deak for my review prior to being sent on to the factory for reimbursement. I often was in the field inspecting outboards and outdrives and determining why something failed, if it was warranty and authorizing repairs if it was... <br />I have seen a Cobra a time or two.. This was durring the "Cobra recall" period that many of us would like to forget about, so I admit to having too many dreams/nightmares about cables and gear sets...too many!!!!! Anyway, as I think about your situation, I believe the following... Having gears and bearing to inspect would be better but... Only three senerios come to mind at this early hour.. 1) The OD was destined to fail in it's life, no one can tell you when this could/would happen, but, mechanical pieces DO break and that why I make a living doing what I do... "stuff happens", the luck of the draw, who knows??I do not have an opinion on if 400 hours IS alot or not. It IS double the hours of a unit with 200 , and half of a unit with 800.....(800 IS alot though!) 2) it's possible that the input/u-joint shaft and it's seal at the upper housing could have been failing and letting oil migrate from the oil cavity into the u-joint bellows. This is not uncommon, HOWEVER, when the od is removed from the transom for servicing, the oil would be seen laying inside the bellows. Now, IF someone never removes the OD from the boar,this would not be noticed, so one could drain and refill the oil a few times and not notice the low/no oil situation. The amount of leakage/lack of oil would determine the extent of damage that could happen over a short OR long time....Again, the OD was removed at some time so .... if it wasn't noticed, it did not leak, correct?? and 3) the dealer/mechanic filled the outdrive incorrectly, ie: via the lower drain plug hole vs, the "correct" way, via the "middle hole". Reasons given in above posts... The result would be/IS... upper gear failure where it did not occur previously..Owner accepts a certin amount of liability when he works on your product. He admits to doing repairs incorrectly. Hense, he is at fault!! Let me repeat the following. Whenever I ask a customer (or in this case, the tech who changed the oil).. "You did fill the oil from the bottom, right??" I usually will get the honest answer, either yes or no! If it's yes, shame on him!! Good luck in your court case!!

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

P.V., thanks for your input.<br /><br />Here are the givens:<br /><br />1) They admitted to filling from the drain plug instead of the fill plug.<br /><br />2) The drive started screaming the day after I got it back from them after servicing. They then came and checked the gear oil, it was low, and took additional 24-28 oz to fill. After filling to capacity, it remained full for another 17 hours of driving and 7 or 8 months.<br /><br />Since it remained at full capacity once we added the addditional 24-28 oz of oil (and nothing else was done), seems like we can rule out a leak and scenario #2. (plus noone found oil in the u-joint bellows).<br /><br />So it seems like we end up comparing the probablility that:<br /> <br />1) the gear damage was caused by the low oil level (probably due to improper filing from the bottom, but in a sense the reason is moot; the level was low when I got the boat back, period);<br /><br />or 2) the gears went due to some other unspecified cause, unrelated to the low oil level, and it coincidentally happened right when the boat came back from the shop with the gear oil that low.<br /><br />Although 2) is theoretically possible, I'd guess that the odds that it was 1) dwarf the odds that it was 2), especially since it's common knowledge that you'll trash your gears/ bearings by running the outdrive when it's very low on oil.

 

[Lou C]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Although it doesn't help at this point, a habit I have had is I always double check both my own work, and the work done by others before running any equipment. So when I get the boat back from the outdrive service, before running it I always check the level, even though I know that my shop does it the right way. Same goes for the cars, one time I had to have some auto trans updates done on the Jeep and I checked it before driving off the lot. Sure enough, over a quart low!<br />Just had a reman trans installed under my extended warrantee, of course I checked it before driving off the lot, this time it was full<br />Of course they should know what they are doing and double check it, but I do this because even good techs can make mistakes.<br />If you are reasonably handy, you can do this yourself in the future. The problem is that with outdrives, there are a lot of other points that should be checked yearly (pressure and vac test, replace impeller and zincs, etc). That is why I let the pros do it, even though I could do the pressure and vac test myself, and replace the impeller (easy on a Cobra), the tech will notice small problems I might miss and fix before it becomes a major problem.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Lou,<br /><br />Good advice about double checking even if a shop does it. I usually do change the outdrive oil myself, never any problems. <br /><br />The irony of it all is that I took it in for them to pull the lower drive & lube the ujoints, etc. Otherwise I would have changed the drive oil myself. But not only did they return the drive with low oil, they didn't lube the lower unit which is what I wanted in the first place! <br /><br />I found this out after they came back and refilled the drive oil. The shop manager told me it would be a couple of hundred dollars to go back and do the lube. I told him I'd like it done, as much because I figured then they could look for the cause of the new whining noise (which turned out to be the gear damage) as to have the lube done. He told me he'd call me back to schedule the service, never did. <br /><br />Knowing what I know now, I'm not too surprised he never called me back. He knew how low the gear oil was and heard the drive scream when he came back out to check the drive when I told them about the problem. I may be much more cynical than before all this happened, but I suspect he may not have wanted to see what the inside of the upper drive looked like at that point.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

hello<br /> having witnessed more upper gear failures than a lot of people ever see I can tell you that running the upper case with no oil will wipe the gears and turn them blue. the bearings are tapered roller and will run with no lube a lot longer than the gears.<br /> the guy states in his letter that he is not a tech and has just compiled the service literature. someof us on the other hand have rebuilt hundreds of drives. the gear alloys are all very similar as is the gear hobbing (cutting) and heat treating process. I would not take it to court. the "curriculum Vitae" can make or break ya.<br /> its possible that the upper yoke seal failed and drained the drive oil into the bellows when tilted. that is a common failure with outdrives of all makes. <br /> that is why they started using drive oil monitors.<br /> try to get the tech that tore the case down for inspection to go with you. I am telling you I have been involved as a witness in many cases. some of the local attorneys that I do work for call me.<br />the fact is the drive was run with low oil. the second fact to find is why it was low. does the workorder show the amount of oil you were billed for?<br /> if you were not billed for approx 64 ounces then you will have a case. otherwise they may say that the upper seal leaked it out. and without the original case and yoke that just cant be proven.were it my shop I would have pressure tested it imediatly before refilling and if it was low the next step would have been a top cover removal for inspection. total time would be about 30 min for all.<br /> did you by chance keep all the workorder reciepts?

 

[seahorse5]

Re: OMC outdrive damage: was I shafted? (RESOLVED)

Lakelivin,<br /><br />Do you have a factory service manual? If not, get one, #507878, for the 1990 PWC and PWS Cobra Stern Drive models.<br /><br />On pages 2-14 and 2-15 there is a NOTE about filling correctly and trapped air.<br /><br />Page 8-46 says "... running drive with improper oil level can cause immediate internal outdrive damage". It also illustrates the correct filling procedure.<br /><br />Good luck.