Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

[IHDiesel73L]

Sometime this Fall I'm going to begin building this boat:

Boat plan details, Jon Boat 14 (GF14), Power Boats 16' or less

It's a 14' cross between a Jon and a Garvey which will be used for fishing, general tooling around, and camping on two large lakes in the area. The crew will consist of myself, my wife, our daughter (almost two) and occasionally our 70lb Lab. I'm sure that sounds like a lot for a 14' boat, but with a 5' 2" beam it's actually quite roomy. I was trying to strike a balance between a boat that was large enough but would still be small enough to use with a 9.9 HP outboard since both lakes are HP limited. I won't be able to get up on plane of course, but with the right prop I should be able to move along at 8-10 MPH. In any event, I'm trying to pay careful attention to the specs of the boat with regard to weight capacity, so I've been crunching numbers. I'd appreciate it if someone would look over all of this to make sure that I'm outfitting the boat with proper safety gear, and also accounting for it's weight so that I'm not overloading the boat. Specs are as follows:

Draft @ DWL - 5"
Displacement @ DWL - 1,150 lbs
PPI @ DWL - 220 lbs
Hull weight - 150 lbs

Here is the list of "essential gear" (safety and otherwise) that will be in the boat all of the time along with either an educated guess at the weight, or a verified weight if I could find it (I could for most things):

Trolling motor/starting batteries (2) - 125
Gasoline (5 gallons + tank weight) - 40
Life vests - 8
Outboard - 85
Fire extinguisher - 10
First aid kit - 5
Flares - 5
Air horn - 5
Tool kit -10
Anchor - 15
200' poly anchor rope - 10
Paddles - 5
Bimini top/frame - 15
Trolling motor - 15
--------------------------------------------
353 lbs of "essential" gear
+
575 lbs of crew (dog included)
--------------------------------------------
928 lbs

Displacement at DWL = 1,150 so:

1,150
-
150 (Hull weight)
-
928 (Crew and essential gear)
--------------------------------------------
72 lbs = Excess weight capacity with regard to DWL

Obviously 72 lbs is not a lot of weight, especially if we are taking the boat for an overnight camping trip to the other side of the lake laden with a cooler, tent, sleeping bags, etc... However, according to the design (PPI @ DWL) the boat could easily be loaded with an additional 220 lbs and only draft an additional inch/still have plenty of freeboard for a total extra carrying capacity of 292 lbs which should be more than sufficient. What I am hoping is that I have not failed to take into account any essential safety equipment which should be coming with us.

 

[crabby captain john]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

Dreaming of course. Have a fun time building... With all you are planning for a 14' boat please leave your daughter with someone.

 

[rallyart]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

First question I have is why add a trolling motor and batteries to the mix. A 9.9 will idle forever and should be fine for trolling. That saves you a bunch of space, money, and weight. I suspect a 10# anchor is more than enough and I'd use a 100' nylon rope as it's long enough, stronger, and takes less space. The lakes can't be all that big if they have a 9.9 power limit.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

Dreaming of course. Have a fun time building... With all you are planning for a 14' boat please leave your daughter with someone.

Can you give some reasons for what you're saying? Is the boat overloaded in your opinion? I'm not the one with experience here which is why I'm asking questions. If you could point out where I'm going wrong here it would be really helpful. I have considered building the 16' version instead which has a Displacement @ DWL (same draft) of 1,310 lbs. Should I consider that boat instead?

First question I have is why add a trolling motor and batteries to the mix. A 9.9 will idle forever and should be fine for trolling. That saves you a bunch of space, money, and weight. I suspect a 10# anchor is more than enough and I'd use a 100' nylon rope as it's long enough, stronger, and takes less space. The lakes can't be all that big if they have a 9.9 power limit.

I kind of struggled with that one. While probably 75% of our time will be spent on the two 9.9 limited lakes (they are 2,000 and 1,900 acres respectively) there are a lot of really small electric only lakes as well that we'd use the trolling motor for. I suppose I could make the batteries easily accessible and removable for when we're out on the larger lakes.

With regard to the anchor if a 10 lb will do that's fine with me. One of the lakes ranges between 100-160' deep which was the reason for the long length. The other is much shallower, maybe 60' at its deepest.

 

[crabby captain john]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

That boat is way overloaded. Too much for the 16' too. A 5'2" beam is NOT roomy. With you at the tiller and weight at the bow it would not take much to swamp her. No flotation so it can sink.... Why 8 life preserves for 3 people? You need at least a 16'er and to cut weight back. A 16' tinny would better serve some of your purposes. For everything you are asking an 18 would be better. 5' does not make a stable boat-- what you are planning on building would make a decent small lake boat for 2 people fishing with either the 9.9 or electric little else. A 70 pound dog? A 14' or 16' is not a cruiser in any way.

 

[pckeen]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

Way way way overloaded - what you are planning on building will be way too small for your purposes, and with what you are describing, it sounds like the boat will be virtually sinking. Remember - a 70 pound lab won't sit still in a small boat - which means if it gets freaked out at the waves, it will be moving around, panicking, and potentially sitting on your daughter....and making her freak out as well. I took a look at the website you are looking at, and was surprised to see that the materials to build that boat are over $2000.

If you want to do the work, have you considered buying and restoring a tin boat? You could do that for substantially less cash.

With the family size you have, you want a 16' boat or larger.

What I suggest you do is go to a marina (with wife and daughter), and have a look at some of the 14 and 16 feet tin boats there. Sit in them and think about what it will be like with fishing gear, supplies, etc. That will give you a much better idea of the dimensions and what size you will need. Remember that you will need to be able to move around in the boat, while on the water, for a variety of reasons.

If you do decide to build it, best of luck!

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

That boat is way overloaded. Too much for the 16' too. A 5'2" beam is NOT roomy. With you at the tiller and weight at the bow it would not take much to swamp her. No flotation so it can sink.... Why 8 life preserves for 3 people?

A couple of things. First, the design calls for 850 lbs of flotation foam but I was going to up that to at least 1,000 as there is ample room between the stern, middle, and bow seats. Second, the numbers listed next to the items are not the number of items they are the approximate weights, in pounds, of the items. Not to be rude, but you didn't really think I was bringing 125 trolling motor batteries and 15 anchors did you?

Way way way overloaded - what you are planning on building will be way too small for your purposes, and with what you are describing, it sounds like the boat will be virtually sinking.

Ok, here is where I'm confused. When looking at various boat designs, I've been looking at "Displacement at Design Water Line" and "Draft at Design Water Line." This is the water line that the designer intends the boat to operate at. On the GF14, the Displacement at Design Water Line is 1,150 lbs, meaning, when the weight of the boat, motor, all equipment, and occupants is equal to 1,150 lbs, it will be sitting at DWL, which also means it will be drafting 5" with 17" of freeboard. I had calculated the weight of boat, motor, all occupants, (including the dog, but let's take him out of the equation) to be 928 lbs, 72 lbs less than Displacement at DWL, take away the dog and we're at 142 lbs less than DWL. I don't really understand the relationship between design water line and maximum weight capacity. If someone could explain that I'd be grateful.

I took a look at the website you are looking at, and was surprised to see that the materials to build that boat are over $2000. If you want to do the work, have you considered buying and restoring a tin boat? You could do that for substantially less cash. With the family size you have, you want a 16' boat or larger.

I think over $2000 is a little high just to build it (unless you were looking at the precut plywood kit also)? The kit with all of the glass and epoxy needed is $550 or so. Marine plywood can be locally sourced (I live on the coast) for about another $500. Then of course you have paint, rigging, etc...but that would all be needed for restoring an old tin boat. I have looked around quite a bit at used tinnys, but my main complaints are not enough freeboard on the jon boats and not enough beam on the v-hulls, and even for boats in really poor condition, people seem to want quite a bit of money for them, so I figure, why not spend a little more (and spread the cost out over a longer period of time) and get exactly what I want?

What I suggest you do is go to a marina (with wife and daughter), and have a look at some of the 14 and 16 feet tin boats there. Sit in them and think about what it will be like with fishing gear, supplies, etc. That will give you a much better idea of the dimensions and what size you will need. Remember that you will need to be able to move around in the boat, while on the water, for a variety of reasons.

I will definitely do that, but I'd appreciate it if someone could please explain the relationship between displacement at DWL and maximum capacity. It will really help me understand how large of a boat I need.

 

[pckeen]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

It sounds like you really want to build - post your pics as you do - I'd love to follow along.

I don't know the answer to your question re. displacement/maximum capacity. I know that boats must have a capacity plate, telling users how many people can be included in the boat. Does the boat plans site provide a capacity plate for your boat? I'm not sure how capacity is calculated, but found a couple of sites that might help you as a start for research.

How many people can fit in a boat? - BoatSafe Kids!

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/BoatCapacityVSAvailableSeating.pdf

 

[crabby captain john]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

It seems like your mind is made up and we all would like to see the build as you progress. I'm not a gambler and wonder if I could take out an insurance policy on you when ready to launch.

 

[Another retired guy]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

I can't answer your question, but I can make reference to an old formula that has been used for many years to calculate an approximate weight/capacity for a given boat.
Multiply the length (in feet) by the width and divide that figure by 15 to give you max # of people. Then multiply # of people by 150 to give max weight.
In your case that would be 14 x 5 = 70. Divide 70/15 = <5 people.
Multiply <5 x 150 = 700 lbs approx.
this is a rough indication of capacity and weight and is usually considered to be on the high side!!
I'll give you an example from a neighbors boat - he has a 19ft Sea Ray Cuddy and it's rated for 6 people and 900 lbs !!!! I can't comment on your calculations, but I don't see 1150 lbs in a 14' boat

 

[Another retired guy]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

Maybe this answers your question?

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/displacement.doc

 

[rallyart]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

There are some boat design forums that can give you specific formulas, which get quite detailed. A quick view of design weight might mean that if you carry about 7 times the rated maximum capacity the boat won't sink. It might not handle a ripple on the water at that load but it would not take on water if the water was glass. So if you feel comfortable putting a couple big cars on the boat you'll have an idea if it will handle 1150#s. People capacity is an entirely different calculation and it deals with how much list the boat has if all the 'people' are on one side.
Building a boat from scratch would be quite an adventure. If you look at an inflatable you can find a light boat with a high capacity that planes out easily. An 11' with a 9.9 on it would meet your goals I think. A 12' would be better. (It would be hard to build your own inflatable, however)

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

I can't answer your question, but I can make reference to an old formula that has been used for many years to calculate an approximate weight/capacity for a given boat. Multiply the length (in feet) by the width and divide that figure by 15 to give you max # of people. Then multiply # of people by 150 to give max weight. In your case that would be 14 x 5 = 70. Divide 70/15 = <5 people. Multiply <5 x 150 = 700 lbs approx. this is a rough indication of capacity and weight and is usually considered to be on the high side!! I'll give you an example from a neighbors boat - he has a 19ft Sea Ray Cuddy and it's rated for 6 people and 900 lbs !!!! I can't comment on your calculations, but I don't see 1150 lbs in a 14' boat

Now I see where the misunderstanding is here. I am not talking about putting 1,150 lbs IN the boat. Nowhere did I suggest that.

What I said was that the Displacement at Design Water Line of the boat is 1,150 lbs. Think of that like the Gross Vehicle Weight of a car. Meaning, the weight of the boat, outboard, all gear, and crew weighs 1,150 lbs.

According to the design, at that weight, the boat will be sitting at the water line the designer intended and will be drawing 5" of water.

Also, I never suggested putting more than four people in the boat, so that satisfies the formula as well. I was trying to get an idea of whether my safety equipment was adequate, if someone could comment on that it would be great.

There are some boat design forums that can give you specific formulas, which get quite detailed. A quick view of design weight might mean that if you carry about 7 times the rated maximum capacity the boat won't sink. It might not handle a ripple on the water at that load but it would not take on water if the water was glass. So if you feel comfortable putting a couple big cars on the boat you'll have an idea if it will handle 1150#s.

Again, not talking about the boat "handling" 1,150 lbs.

I am talking about the total weight of the boat, outboard, gear, and people weighing 1,150 lbs.

According to the design, at that point, the boat should be floating at the Design Water Line (5" draft).

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

floation doesn't make a boat float and doesn't mean it would float level and safe if (when) it swamps.

get a pull-start motor and eliminate all batteries. that's how you run a 14' boat.

but it's clear from your responses that you are not looking for advice, but approval, and you are frustrated b/c you won't find it here. You have over-thought the whole process into minute details but miss the big picture. cargo weight is but one aspect of what makes a boat safe, just like HP or bow design or length or freeboard. You are trying to make it the only aspect, and that makes it irrelevant to the real question--the overall safety of that boat in your intended use. It's not guaranteed; it close. It could work on a good day; not on a suddenly bad day.

as to your specifics: you don't need 5 pounds of flares or 5 pounds of air horn. A 2 oz coach's whistle will be fine. But see, it's not the weight that matters. You're not backpacking, where you break your toothbrush in half to save weight.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

but it's clear from your responses that you are not looking for advice, but approval, and you are frustrated b/c you won't find it here. You have over-thought the whole process into minute details but miss the big picture.

What I was asking is, is it normally acceptable to operate a boat at the displacement at design water line weight. The folks who have replied are asserting that I am asking if I can take a 14' boat with an outboard and put over a half ton of weight into it. That is not what I'm asking or planning on doing.

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

You should start here, ask the people that designed her and other builders: Bateau2.com - Technical support for builders

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

You should start here, ask the people that designed her and other builders: Bateau2.com - Technical support for builders

I did and got this reply from the designer:

Your math is correct but the reasoning of those who advised you on that web site are totally wrong.
I am the designer and did the same math as you during the design. I do it for every design. I am glad to see that we arrive at about the same figures.

If your estimated total weight is 75 lbs less than my estimate, it means that you have a 75 lbs safety margin. In other words you could load the boat an extra 75 lbs before getting to the design waterline.

Compared to the PPI, that probably means less than a 1/4". How can that be an overloaded boat when the weight is less? Where do they get the idea that a boat will be dangerous when it floats within it's lines?

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

"Compared to the PPI, that probably means less than a 1/4". How can that be an overloaded boat when the weight is less? Where do they get the idea that a boat will be dangerous when it floats within it's lines? "

because we have taken boats out that are way below their weight limits in conditions we found difficult to dangerous, and know that bulk weight is but one factor and a small factor in the way a boat handles and survives. we're not concerned about floating in a mill pond; this guy wants to take it and his 2 year old overnight wildnerness camping.

You may have the sharpest pencils in your pocket protectors but they won't matter when the waters get angry. You may be dead right about floating in the lines. Pun intended.

And I happen to know something about small boat designs, such as how the curvature of the hull works for self-righting a heeling boat. I also know what a frisky lab, a frightened 2 year old and weekend's camping gear can do in small quarters. I know about loading weight in boats, amd moving it, to affect operations.

I have been safe in severely overloaded boats and in danger in almost empty boats. The difference had nothing to do with weight.

Oh, and it's "its" lines, not "it's" if you want to be precise.

 

[crabby captain john]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

Did not know the "designer" was a naval architect. I stopped responding to OP after informing him I'm not a gambler but would like his permission to take an insurance policy out on him.... <smile>

"Compared to the PPI, that probably means less than a 1/4". How can that be an overloaded boat when the weight is less? Where do they get the idea that a boat will be dangerous when it floats within it's lines? "

because we have taken boats out that are way below their weight limits in conditions we found difficult to dangerous, and know that bulk weight is but one factor and a small factor in the way a boat handles and survives. we're not concerned about floating in a mill pond; this guy wants to take it and his 2 year old overnight wildnerness camping.

You may have the sharpest pencils in your pocket protectors but they won't matter when the waters get angry. You may be dead right about floating in the lines. Pun intended.

And I happen to know something about small boat designs, such as how the curvature of the hull works for self-righting a heeling boat. I also know what a frisky lab, a frightened 2 year old and weekend's camping gear can do in small quarters. I know about loading weight in boats, amd moving it, to affect operations.

I have been safe in severely overloaded boats and in danger in almost empty boats. The difference had nothing to do with weight.

Oh, and it's "its" lines, not "it's" if you want to be precise.

 

[slowleak]

Re: Outfitting a 14' lake cruiser with safety gear/weight questions

I'm no boat designer but A buddy an me fish from a 14' aluminum boat every week which is rated at 700lbs max weight capacity, persons, motor, and gear. I have another boat, same size, nearly identical from a different brand, rated at 1054lbs. Both are 14' boats.
I weight in at 300lbs, he at 275, the motor weighs about 80lbs, the electric trolling motor about 40lbs, plus one 80lb deep cycle battery.
We carry one 6 gallon portable tank and at time a spare 3 gallon up front just in case, so figure about 60lbs of fuel, tank and fuel hose. On top of that add in two life vests, a 10lb anchor, 150' of nylon rope, about 25lbs in all when the rope is wet, a half dozen rods and reels, and two tackle boxes, about another 80lbs or so. Then there's a cooler for the catch, and a cooler for lunch and drink. The coolers full of ice are about 50lbs combined. There's two small fire extinguishers, about 10lbs at best. Plus a bucket of bait, and other various items puts the total load at roughly 575lbs persons + 450lbs motor and gear. That's $1025 total in weight.
The boat is stable, it plane out fine so long as the weight is distributed properly, and I've never felt it was in danger of sinking.
Its probably in better shape on the water with two guys and the added weight than with just me or him at the stern running the tiller motor. The boat with just me and the motor nearly sinks due to water over the transom and will not get on plane with the tiny 9.8hp motor. With a buddy up front and the added weight, it planes out and has at least 5" of freeboard at the transom. It draws little water, even fully loaded its never in the water much more than a few inches.
Another buddy has a 16' boat, that's similar but wider but its rated at only 940lbs, that boat's added size makes running the small motor futile, its not nearly enough to get the larger motor on plane even with minimal weight.
The drag of the larger hull cannot be overcome by the 9.8hp Merc. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between running a 6hp, 7.5hp and the 9.8hp on that boat.

I mention the 16' boat comparison we made since you mentioned an 85lb motor and HP limited lakes. Those types of lakes were precisely why we went back to the 14' boats. The boats with the flatter bottoms were the best, they took more weight and were far more stable on the water. I've owned dozens of 14' boats over the years, all have been deeper 14' boats, with lengths varying a bit but most were only 60" wide or so. Going by the Coast Guard rating on the plate, most 14' boats are overloaded with just the two of us and the motor, not counting fuel. The 16' boat isn't much better off but we do stay under the max on that boat. The 16' does not have the high sides that the 14' does though and can easily be tipped to the point of taking water over the gunwales while fishing. All are V type aluminum boats.

I suppose your flat bottom plywood boat will be fine, you really won't know till its all done and you test it in the water.
The decision you will have to make is whether or not your motor will move a larger 16' hull if you go that way and will the results be acceptable. For me, the loss of speed made the 16' aluminum a non option, it was the difference of about 6mph and burning lots more fuel, or getting on plane and running around 15mph or so and being able to run most lakes with only the 3 gallon tank. With the 16' boat I often needed two 6 gal. tanks and then the 3 gal. tank as a spare, which added to the problem.

Your best advise will come from others running that same boat.

The 5' width wouldn't bother me, its about all any aluminum boat that size will measure, and most flat bottom jon boats are narrower. My last 14' flat bottom jon boat was only 30" wide with a 440lb max weight capacity on the CG plate. (me plus motor and fuel were over weight.

Myself, I considered building a wood boat in the past but the reality is that I can't build anything better suited to my purposes for any less than I can buy a good aluminum boat for, and aluminum don't rot.

If you go with the 16' option, you may need to consider having a larger motor as well for places that don't restrict you to 9.9hp. I keep a 25hp around for bigger water, and the difference in how the boat moves and handles with more power is night and day.
With the 25hp, 12 gallons of gas, and two guys in a 16' boat, I've come back from a day of crabbing so loaded the boat had only inches of freeboard. It was bad enough that we considered sinking the crab pots for an overnight soak just to save weight but it made it back. The hardest part was seeing around and past the stack of crab pots and traps piled in the bow deck and front bench seat area. (The traps and crab pots are light, its the bricks we use to hold them in place that add the weight).