Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

[Don S]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

Guys, slow down. This is about tinned or non tinned wire. Don't get into a new discussion between yourselves about stereo installation, If you want to, great, just start your own thread about it.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

I've never actually been on an audio forum, but I suspect you're right. Scratch that.

Its not just about voltage drop. Its about getting clean power to the amp quickly. This can be a problem as the wires heat up under load, and from the heat of the engine.

The heating doesn't matter. A 4 gauge wire can carry way more current than what is required here before getting too hot. The ONLY draw back of more voltage drop is that the amp won't reach its rated output...maybe. No extra noise is caused by the small amount of heat dissipated by the cable.

OP can probably drop a wire size is my point. Maybe make up the cost of what tinned wire would cost. In the scheme of things with 1200W amps, sounds like cost isn't too much of an issue though.

 

[jimbo_jwc]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

LOL...you don't thing 4 gauge is smaller wire than 0?

Sorry had brain freeze 4gauge THHN isnt smaller than 0 XMM? or Welding lead wire even with it heavy insl.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

The gauge of wire is based solely on the cross section of the wire itself. Insulation isn't even factored into it.

 

[Knot Waiting]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

The heating doesn't matter. A 4 gauge wire can carry way more current than what is required here before getting too hot. The ONLY draw back of more voltage drop is that the amp won't reach its rated output...maybe. No extra noise is caused by the small amount of heat dissipated by the cable.

OP can probably drop a wire size is my point. Maybe make up the cost of what tinned wire would cost. In the scheme of things with 1200W amps, sounds like cost isn't too much of an issue though.

Well, cost "wasn't" an issue... until now. As with most projects this one has far exceeded budget. So saving some money on tinned vs non started to make sense.

Also, for some reason my reply to your prior question didn't show up but this is the first I've posted on this subject so the dejavu your having must be from another install.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

This is a generation gap issue. If you are over 30 you will not understand it.

There is a NEED for 2000 watts of music/noise so you can still hear the speakers after you fall of the wake board and your head is under water and the boat is 200 yards away.:faint2:

I occasionally have access to scrap pieces of #0 gauge welding cable the car audio guys happily buy from me.
They install extra batteries (Plural) and additional alternators just for the sound system.

There is no sense in trying to question 2% or 5% drop. They want 0% drop!
And they will tell you they can HEAR the increased fidelity when using Gold plated "Monster Cable" and Connectors.

You can not use logic to change the opinion of someone who did not use logic to form the opinion in the first place!

For the record, I am over 30 at least twice.
My boat came with a basic stereo system that I tested in the driveway to see if it worked, but have yet to turn on the water.
I would rather listen to the wind, the water, and the engine.
I have however used the AUX input to the stereo to feed in the VHF marine radio audio.
It makes the CG and the Weather report very easy to hear anywhere in the boat.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

At genuinedealz, 4 AWG tinned is $1.97/ft and 1/0 AWG is $5.24/ft. with free shipping. Why not just run 4 the whole way. They will even put the connectors on for you for a small charge.

The difference between tinned or not is going to be around $0.50/foot. Only $25 for 50 feet.

 

[gm280]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

At genuinedealz, 4 AWG tinned is $1.97/ft and 1/0 AWG is $5.24/ft. with free shipping. Why not just run 4 the whole way. They will even put the connectors on for you for a small charge.

The difference between tinned or not is going to be around $0.50/foot. Only $25 for 50 feet.

WOW after reading most of these comments I have to ask if all of this was ever researched to understand what tinned verses non-tinned is all about. Once you get the wire, either type, to the terminal you have to either crimp, solder or both crimp and solder the terminal ends on. And tinned or non tinned will solder and/or crimp to the wire end and therefore be the sole issue with corrosion after installed. Tinned wire does not guarantee you that the wire will not corrode; it just gives a little longer time before corrosion (in most circumstances), nothing else. Just remember one simple issue, dissimilar metals will always promote corrosion...period. So even if you ran gold plated wires, your terminals will most likely be the first point of that corrosion procedure. Also try to remember that nothing last forever and by the time non-tinned wires caused much problems (if any) you will probably have a completely different idea and stereo setup anyway. I do know how the younger than 30 crowd thinks...I had two teens at one time as well. You couldn?t give them a high powered system now. But then they both are over that phase as well too. So I know this seriously isn?t about wire size or even wire type but bragging rights to who has the biggest and badest system. So for peat sake buy the most expensive wire you can possible find, because not doing that will leave you to think how much better your sound system would have sounded because you cheaped out of the best wire. I will bet you that even with hugely accurate DB meters and such that you will never hear any difference with either wiring setup or the corrosion that may never happen to effect the system for maybe decades to come if at all. I mean you are on the water not in some perfectly acoustical room where it could maybe detectable... And in those decade there will be advances in wire technology and tinned will be out replaced by some new better wire... So you will never have cutting edge but for a few months or years at best...think Computers...enough said!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

Just remember one simple issue, dissimilar metals will always promote corrosion...period.

Uhhh...that's why you also use tinned terminals.
Genuinedealz > 4 awg,Battery lug,terminal lug,cable lug,tinned lugs,solder lugs,crimp lugs

And in those decade there will be advances in wire technology and tinned will be out replaced by some new better wire.

LOL...its just copper wire. No technology improvements are ever going to happen.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

I have to ask the obvious question....is that 1200W RMS or 1200W peak to peak?

 

[gm280]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

Uhhh...that's why you also use tinned terminals.
Genuinedealz > 4 awg,Battery lug,terminal lug,cable lug,tinned lugs,solder lugs,crimp lugs

LOL...its just copper wire. No technology improvements are ever going to happen.

I beg to differ with your assumptions. First, when you solder any terminal you are using either rosin core solder (60/40, 63/37, 62, 38 etc.) or applying flux externally. And if you don?t know why you use that flux, the reason is because when it heats up via the soldering iron, it turns to an acid to clean the connection so it will accept the solder...period! It HAS to be cleaned off with alcohol so that soldered connection won?t continue to eat away at the metal. I know I've been doing such for years on aircraft equipment both black box repairs and cabling, as well as circuit designs and proto typing boards. So there goes the tinned or plated terminal idea as well. So there will always be improvement for the Defense industry that will flow over to the general public...as usual. I am a Micro-miniature NASA certified solderer (well I guess that is past tense since I?m recently retire now). And I?ve seen most every type terminal and/or wiring problem that exists. Tinned wires and terminals are no guarantee that corrosion will not start. That IS a false premise. In fact there is absolutely no such thing as corrosion proof anything... Iron Rusts, Aluminum Oxidizes, Copper Oxidizes, Lead Oxidizes as well just like any metal with the exception of gold, it has to do with the Oxygen in the air. So buying tinned wire to solve that problem is not the simple answer everybody thinks. Tinned wire is a metallurgy of tin, lead, antimony and other trace elements as well. And every one of those metals will and do corrode in time. It just helps to slow that process down a little. You would simply not believe how tinned cables inside large aircraft corrode in the middle of insulated wire runs... With all that stated, each person has to do what he/she thinks is the best solution to their own setups...that IS what makes the world go round!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

He just wants to crimp the connection for what he is doing. No need to solder. In fact, you don't want a soldered connection here at all. Just a crimp with a piece of shrink sleeve over it.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

I've always questioned the concept of tinning wire because tin is one of the least noble metals and is highly susceptible to galvanic reaction.

I think you have that backwards.

Tin is very insusceptible to corrosion. It just has to be more noble that the metal it is protecting. Why do you think tin is used with copper to form the alloy bronze? Why is it used as a coating for steel cans to prevent corrosion of acidic foods?

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

Why is it used as a coating for steel cans to prevent corrosion of acidic foods?

Because it tastes good?...:laugh:

 

[jimbo_jwc]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

I beg to differ with your assumptions. First, when you solder any terminal you are using either rosin core solder (60/40, 63/37, 62, 38 etc.) or applying flux externally. And if you don’t know why you use that flux, the reason is because when it heats up via the soldering iron, it turns to an acid to clean the connection so it will accept the solder...period! It HAS to be cleaned off with alcohol so that soldered connection won’t continue to eat away at the metal. I know I've been doing such for years on aircraft equipment both black box repairs and cabling, as well as circuit designs and proto typing boards. So there goes the tinned or plated terminal idea as well. So there will always be improvement for the Defense industry that will flow over to the general public...as usual. I am a Micro-miniature NASA certified solderer (well I guess that is past tense since I’m recently retire now). And I’ve seen most every type terminal and/or wiring problem that exists. Tinned wires and terminals are no guarantee that corrosion will not start. That IS a false premise. In fact there is absolutely no such thing as corrosion proof anything... Iron Rusts, Aluminum Oxidizes, Copper Oxidizes, Lead Oxidizes as well just like any metal with the exception of gold, it has to do with the Oxygen in the air. So buying tinned wire to solve that problem is not the simple answer everybody thinks. Tinned wire is a metallurgy of tin, lead, antimony and other trace elements as well. And every one of those metals will and do corrode in time. It just helps to slow that process down a little. You would simply not believe how tinned cables inside large aircraft corrode in the middle of insulated wire runs... With all that stated, each person has to do what he/she thinks is the best solution to their own setups...that IS what makes the world go round!

Wires I worked with were coated with SA soldered to brass SA coated quick connectors . I still have a couple of 50lb spools of solder and always soldered wire than crimped and resoldered and was told it fills all voids and water cant get into fester .

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

i have helped installed systems in the 5000 watt and higher range and i normally use nickle plated as thats what we have on hand in a large gauge wire that still flexable enoght to use in a car. corrosion was never a concern as most systems will be removed or blown up with in a year so a dab of no-ox is normally enoght to protect the ends. when every db counts i understand why people are into over sizing everything. These stereos are used at max power for less than 1 min a go and never with anyone in the car.

years ago at pit partys we would park a truck then remove the rear parcel shelf speakers and put them on the roof pointing towards the party the reason we did this is because sound waves that bounce around the interior of the truck before exiting the doors sounded like crap as a echo was mixed in with the music. no matter how much power you have on the boat the speakers will face in and bounce around the boat before leaving in all diffrent directions which works if you are on the boat but sounds crap 40' away. a good custom speaker box 6' above the boat will give you a party barge at 300 watts at 2400 watts it would be epic

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

i normally use nickle plated as thats what we have on hand in a large gauge wire that still flexable enoght to use in a car.

I have to say, I have never seen nickel plated stranded wire with insulation that you would want to use in a boat.

 

[gm280]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

I have to say, I have never seen nickel plated stranded wire with insulation that you would want to use in a boat.

I can say that I haven't either.

Just a side note for those using heat shrink tubing. They do make a heat shrink tubing that has heat activated glue inside that will not only shrink around a terminal or wire splice but also seal it with the glue to the air. Good choice to use in a boating application. However, hope you never have to remove it because it is really tough to get it off... You all have a great day...

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

dup post

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Power Wire: Tinned vs. Bare Copper

You seem to be confusing corrosion with galvanic reaction. Two very different things.

Austin, you don't think the product of a galvanic reaction is galvanic corrosion?

Of course the goal is to not have any copper showing at all to prevent the copper wire from being exposed to being oxidized in the first place.