Researching new TV

[i386]

Re: Researching new TV

Well we spent some time yesterday looking at them. She really didn't want to spend more than 1K. You can get a 40" 1080p for that. I wanted something a little larger since I sit about 15' from the TV. There wasn't much selection in the 42's and the 46" ones were out of our price range. The last place we went was Best Buy. There were many sets there to compare. We ended up with a 50" LG Plasma 720p. Now you guys know I'm a geek, so it's hard to show up here without a 1080p. But I gotta tell ya, from my viewing distance I can't tell the difference. Standing right in front of the sets the difference between the 1080p and 720p is pretty obvious, but step back about 15' and those differences fade. At least they do in my eyes. Also the picture quality in the 720p models varied a lot. We narrowed it down to 2 sets. One was a Samsung and the other was the LG. I feel a little less comfortable with LG than Samsung, but at least in the case of these two, the LG had a better and brighter picture. The whites were almost as bright as the LCDs. I don't think motion blur is an issue with plasma like it is with LCD either. I watched a little football and basketball last night and didn't notice it like I did on the non 120Hz LCDs.

We've got a 30 day guarantee on this one so we'll be watching the sale papers. But honestly if I trade up to a 1020p it's only for bragging rights, because this one looks great.


Thanks for all the advice. The only other thing I can add to this thread is think about your viewing distance when you shop. Judge the TVs from the distance you will watch it at home. And when you narrow it down to a few models, fiddle with the settings a bit before you decide one's better than the other.

Riri's already checking into upgrading our satellite to HD. We're out of contract so it's a good time. Last time we looked into it the price was double. I'm not doing that, but we'll see what they have to offer.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Researching new TV

I was in a Best Buy once and overheard a saleman trying to talk some people into a fancy parallel printer cable because the printer would print faster with the expensive cable. I had to bite my tongue and walk away.

I'm glad you bit your tongue, he could have made you look like a fool quite easily. He might not have been as "off" as you think. While a cheap small cable won't slow the printer down once it's received it's data and has begun to spit out paper, a cheap cable can bottleneck the information sent to the printer so in theory, it would slow it down.

You were probably thinking make the printer spit out pages faster, not that it would send the data to the printer faster. I can tell you this, I have an old printer with a parallel cable. That thing is slooooooooooowww as molases to get the data to the printer. I have a new one that uses a USB 2.0 port and no matter how many pages are sent to it, it prints instantly. So cables do matter.

Oh yes, to keep the thread on topic, I did research and discovered that in general consumer reports said to stay away from all Best Buy brands (LG I think was one, along with another maybe, can't remember though) , all Wal Mart brands like Visio and basically stay away from anything that isn't Sony or Panasonic. That was as of March of 2008 though. My parents got a 52" Sony Bravia and it's perfect. Full 1080p. It had the highest marks by consumer reports. So far, no regrets.

I386, my uncle has a 720p set. My parents have their 1080p set. The 1080 has a much sharper picture than the 720. IMHO, they can't be compared.

 

[i386]

Re: Researching new TV

I'm glad you bit your tongue, he could have made you look like a fool quite easily. He might not have been as "off" as you think. While a cheap small cable won't slow the printer down once it's received it's data and has begun to spit out paper, a cheap cable can bottleneck the information sent to the printer so in theory, it would slow it down.

You were probably thinking make the printer spit out pages faster, not that it would send the data to the printer faster. I can tell you this, I have an old printer with a parallel cable. That thing is slooooooooooowww as molases to get the data to the printer. I have a new one that uses a USB 2.0 port and no matter how many pages are sent to it, it prints instantly. So cables do matter.

Oh yes, to keep the thread on topic, I did research and discovered that in general consumer reports said to stay away from all Best Buy brands (LG I think was one, along with another maybe, can't remember though) , all Wal Mart brands like Visio and basically stay away from anything that isn't Sony or Panasonic. That was as of March of 2008 though. My parents got a 52" Sony Bravia and it's perfect. Full 1080p. It had the highest marks by consumer reports. So far, no regrets.

I386, my uncle has a 720p set. My parents have their 1080p set. The 1080 has a much sharper picture than the 720. IMHO, they can't be compared.

With printers, that's not quite an accurate comparison.

Parallel (IEEE1284) interfaces have a maximum rate of 2.5Mbits/sec (ECP)

USB 2.0 interfaces have a maximum rate of 480Mbits/sec

Yes, the difference is huge, but not because of the cables.



I have no doubt your parent's set looks better than your uncle's. Like I said the 720's varied a lot from set to set in the smaller screen models (much more so than the 1080's did). In fact, in the 40-42" range, there wasn't a single 720 that I would have picked over a 1080. But when I did my comparison, I was staring at a wall of 50" 1080's and 720's in both LCD and Plasma. From a few feet away, the 1080 sets were CLEARLY superior. But from 15' away none of the 1080's looked $500 better than the 720's.

Looking at the Dec. 2008 issue of CR I don't read where they specifically say to stay away from anything. The 42" cousin (42PG20) of my TV (50PG20) actually rated 3rd behind 2 Panasonic models in their 42-inch plasma ratings scoring only 4 points lower than the winner. Incidentally the "winning" Panasonic was a 1080, while 2nd and 3rd place were 720's. In their 50" plasma ratings, the LG rated 5th out of 15 behind Samsung, Pioneer, and Panasonic and 6 points behind 1st place. Maybe Sony doesn't offer plasma models.

I read the ratings too but in the end you really have to look at what their offereing and decide what's worth the price.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

As i386 said this was a parallel cable with a lower bit rate and only 6 foot long. The cable would not have made any difference compared to the speed of the printer.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Researching new TV

Thanks for all the advice. The only other thing I can add to this thread is think about your viewing distance when you shop. Judge the TVs from the distance you will watch it at home. And when you narrow it down to a few models, fiddle with the settings a bit before you decide one's better than the other.

Ayuh,....
Even though this is My 1st post to this thread,...
It's the basis for the research that led to the New Samsung 40" lcd, 1080p, 60hz, 30,000:1, playing away on my homemade TV stand Right now.....

My old tube has been popping,+ fartin' for awhile,..
You'd thought that every show was shot as CSI,... Always at Night,...

Anyways,...
My Love,+ I decided to buy a New tube for christmas,...
I let her do All the shopping,+ researching for it,... I pointed out this thread,+ I know she read through it a couple of times... Matter of fact,.. She reread it this morning before we left,...
She'd narrowed it down to a set at Best Buys,+ another at Sam's Club...
This Samsung Won out, at Sam's...$1098. at the check-out,+ a $100. giftcard with your change...

I think it's a Great picture, from All seats in the house...
I'd just add to i386's advice, that you have to include Angles to the Distance factor,....

 

[i386]

Re: Researching new TV

Here's an interesting chart relating viewing distance to screen size.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Researching new TV

i went with the samsung 46 lcd 60mhz...1080p

around 1050 on sale...

we primarily play games xbox and wii (the games systems keep writing to the screen the same image over and over which is how the burn in occurs on the plasma's)
tv's pictures do not do that.

we do not plan on watching mutch tv or movies on it. we have a projector for a 10 ft screen so..

No matter what people say i think you still need to watch these sets in a darkened room, no bright windows reflecting in.

tomaolord

 

[Benny1963]

Re: Researching new TV

just bought 42 inch lg 1080 works great using hdmi inputs not so great on avs
for 900 so far so good got extended warranty ,for what its worth

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

Here's an interesting chart relating viewing distance to screen size.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/

A study was done to find the average distance people view at and it came to 9 feet. This is known as the Lechner distance.

http://hdguru.com/?p=21 to see more

 

[Pony]

Re: Researching new TV

which is how the burn in occurs on the plasma's
tomaolord

Burn in is a thing of the past.......no longer an issue.....hasn't been for at least a year now.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Researching new TV

jlinder

I liked that link, it supports everything I've found by researching it myself.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

Thanks. I first became aware of the Lechner distance in a presentation from an expert on camera lenses.

His talk covered with how the camera lens and your eye works and left out everything in the middle. Really intense

 

[i386]

Re: Researching new TV

My wife was not aware of the Lechner distance when she put my recliner 15' away from the TV.

But I guess if I'm reading this correctly, then it supports what I was saying about the 720p set I bought. From where I sit, I don't see any pixels. However I could sit a lot closer to a 1080p set and still not see pixels than I could a 720p set.


We've spent a lot of time talking about 720 and 1080 but let's not forget there are other factors that contribute to making a tv a good one.


When we chose ours, we were literally looking at a wall of 50" sets. It was at least 8 sets, perhaps even 10. 2 of them were plasma models, and the rest were LCD. Both of the plasma models were $999, the rest of the sets were $1299 and up. We thought hey, a 50" in our price range. Then I looked at the tag and thought, oh damn, it's only a 780p that's why it's $999. Then I thought, hey let's look at this from the distance I'll be watching it. It was then that I noticed I couldn't see the pixels anymore. I'll confess, there was part of me that was disappointed it wasn't a 1080p. My eyes and wallet were fine with it, but something about it not being 1080p just bugged me. Anyway, both of the 50" sets were plasma. Our living room is not well lit so we thought it was a good candidate for plasma. We chose the LG over the Samsung because it was brighter. The Samsung was a lot "darker" than the LCD models which held true to what is said about plasma. The LG plasma was much brighter, and even just as bright as some of the LCD models. So that's what we took home.


Now after spending some time with it here's my honest opinion....

The picture is fine, but the screen is too big. I never thought I'd say that but it really is. The room is about 18' x 12'. Actually it's about 25' x 12' but our seating area is about 18' long looking at a 12' wall.

I'm considering exchanging it for a 46" set, but there are some issues. I want to stay at the same price or lower price. I don't want to sacrifice any picture quality.

There is one 46" LCD made by Samsung that's $1025 right now. It's 1080p but it's got a 60Hz refresh rate. I could snag that one when it drops to $999 or below, but I got a feeling we'll have to live with the motion blur problem while watching sports. Remember, plasma sets don't have the motion blur problem. I doubt the 120Hz sets are going to drop enough to matter in 30 days.

By the way on the motion blur thing. I really looked hard so I could compare motion blur across LCD sets. The demo videos shown in stores really try to hide the motion blur from you. They will show sports scenes in slow motion which makes you ooh and aah at the detail. But the motion shots they show rarely last longer than a second. Another trick they use is to show fast motion sports inside a smaller frame. When the sports scenes only use a small portion of the screen they don't seem to blur at all.

So I guess we'll wait and see what happens. When you don't have a limitless budget you have to sacrifice somewhere. I just don't want to sacrifice the picture quality. At 15' away 720p is not a sacrifice. Complaining that my TV is too big really isn't that bad of a place to be.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

One of the factors in motion blur is the compression, and the cable companies compress all they can.

One way video compression works is that it drops high frequency information when it needs to reduce the amount of data. This high frequency information is what creates sharp images. As a result the image gets soft when there is a lot of information needed.

This combines with another way compression works. The video frames are broken into a group of pictures. The first frame in the group is complete. The other frames in the group just give the difference between the new frame and the first frame. A common value used for GOP (group of pictures) is 15 frames, or 1/2 second.

As a result if the picture is fairly static once the first frame in the group of pictures is sent the others do not require much information. If the information changes quickly then a lot of information is needed for the subsequent frames. To keep the total bandwidth down the compression will soften the image.

The reason this is not too noticible is that it happens over a very short period. Before your eyes have time to recognize the bluriness the movement has stopped and it is back to normal.

The most extreme artifact of this is when the pictre will show what is called macro blocking - big rectangles that appear for a frame or 2. This is what happens when there is so much information that it just gives up. Music videos with a lot of flash frames or flash bulbs sometimes create this, as well as basketball games where the camera quickly pans down the court.

(This is because MPEG compression breaks the screen into blocks. It first sends the video values for the first pixel then gives the other pixels as a difference from the first pixel. If it is overloaded it can give the values for the first pixel then skips the difference values.)

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Researching new TV

i386

I think you made a very good choice, I've looked at and researched so many TV's and technologies its crazy. What it came down to was the plasma picture was better, and it was more difficult to tell the difference in the picture between 720 and 1080 in plasma, than between plasma and LCD. Motion blur on the bigger sets drove me crazy and was the biggest reason I went plasma. I would wait and get used to the 50" set you have now before taking it back, the most frequent complaint people have after buying is realizing they should have gone bigger. I bought a 50", had there not been a huge jump in price I would have gone bigger.

 

[i386]

Re: Researching new TV

Yea, for the money I don't see how we could have done any better. Don't get me wrong, I love the 50" screen. It's just a bit big for the room (not me). Maybe we can add some shelving or other decor to balance things out.

I'm going to keep an eye out in the next 30 days. If a 48" 120Hz LCD in Sony, Samsung, or LG (and MAYBE Toshiba) comes out for $999 I will give it serious consideration. I just doubt that's going to happen. They are more likely do any deep discounts on the 60Hz sets. And that's exactly what it would take to get a 120Hz set of that size down to $1K. Who knows, maybe the price of the set we bought will come way down and we can use the price protection to go toward a Blu-Ray player.


More good news. The price of HD service from Dish Network and DirecTV is no longer 2x that of standard service. The bad news is I heard that the dish needs to be aimed a lot lower. That could be a problem for me. One option is to go HD cable, but we'll have to call and see. Charter doesn't really give the price online. Also I don't know if their DVR is any good. It'll be a while before we get a Blu-Ray player, but we'll get there.

 

[redfury]

Re: Researching new TV

I think the biggest lesson learned in this thread is to not buy on impulse. And I totally agree with the store you are buying it from. My wife works at Walmart in the electronics dept, so I end up in there more than I usually do

If you walk in on any given night, the picture quality on each of the sets can vary quite a bit.

For example. My best friend picked up a 32" Emerson for his bedroom. When we were at the store looking, it had a great looking picture. We got it to his house, hooked it up to his HD cable and he couldn't be happier with it.

A few days later, I noticed the Emerson had a horrible picture compared to other TV's next to it in the same size. Some days it looks great, some days not. I think that the compression issue talked about is a huge factor on how a store like Walmart displays look...you can't necessarily compare them properly without the exact same signal going to each set ( such as from a DVD ). Walmart will always have an Isle display in front of electronics with at least 2 different TV's running on DVD players...they always look great.

It makes me wonder if Walmart doesn't have some sort of designs to push certain TV's over others based on overhead.

Your best bet is to shop a TV like you would shop for a new car. Test drive a few at a few different dealers before making a final decision...otherwise you may find yourself regretting later.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

You are right about comparing using the same video. Dish TV, Direct TV, and cable companies will give different compression settings depending on the video. Sports will tend to get a bigger pipe than old movies.

A bigger pipe will translate into a sharper image.

One concept they use is to take a number of channels and bind them together as one stream. ( For satellite delivery this would be a single transponder.) The idea is that if you take a group of video channels (about 10) and maintain an constant total data rate then you can give some of the channels more bandwidth when they need it - motion for example takes more bandwidth. They take advantage of the fact that statistically it would be very rare for all the channels to need the bandwidth at the same time. This is referred to as statistical multiplexing or stat muxing.

Very hard to see but if you are watching a movie the quality can drop for a moment because of other channels on the same transponder with sports games that are sucking up the bandwidth.

 

[Pierutrus]

Re: Researching new TV

You are right about comparing using the same video. Dish TV, Direct TV, and cable companies will give different compression settings depending on the video. Sports will tend to get a bigger pipe than old movies.

A bigger pipe will translate into a sharper image.

One concept they use is to take a number of channels and bind them together as one stream. ( For satellite delivery this would be a single transponder.) The idea is that if you take a group of video channels (about 10) and maintain an constant total data rate then you can give some of the channels more bandwidth when they need it - motion for example takes more bandwidth. They take advantage of the fact that statistically it would be very rare for all the channels to need the bandwidth at the same time. This is referred to as statistical multiplexing or stat muxing.

Very hard to see but if you are watching a movie the quality can drop for a moment because of other channels on the same transponder with sports games that are sucking up the bandwidth.

That's called the "Heart Beat Affect", and yes...I am an expert because I slept with a women at a motel!

 

[jlinder]

Re: Researching new TV

Never heard as it referred to as the heartbeat effect. Do you have any reference info?