Sking more dangerous then boating ?

[lowkee]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

No idea who that person is, but it sounds like aclassic case of 'Died with an uninteresting story'. That is the true tragedy, here. If celebrities are going to go out, it should be written into their contracts having to go out with a decent headline.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

You could not be more incorrect. People die from a "simple knock of the head" frequently.

I was in a bad car accident 20 years ago. I was in a seat belt, but didn't hit a thing in the car. I still ended up with brain injury in both the front and back of my head. This happened merely because the impact of the crash was so hard, and my head was whipped so violently forward and backward, that I had minor bleeds in both places.


These injuries are extrememly dangerous and very often don't appear to be serious at first. People have a tendency to minimize the seriousness of them and deaths such as that of Natasha Ricardson, are often the result.

Jay, you are picking fly poop out of the pepper.
Jason mentions "a simple knock to the head shouldn't kill you"; you disagree using an example of an injury that happened to you "merely because the impact of the crash was so hard, and my head was whipped so violently forward and backward..."
Does that sound at all like what Jason might have meant by "a simple knock on the head?"
I am also certain that in your case, the mechanism of injury was sufficiently dramatic that there was every indication that there might be significant head trauma.

This is truly a shame because it didn't have to happen.

OK, beyond the fact that this really equates to you stating that "a simple knock to the head shouldn't kill you", a definitive statement like that clearly implies that you are aware of enough of the facts in this case to find fault with those who dealt with the emergency.
Enlighten us, please, who messed up?

QC mentions that he was a ski patroller some years ago....I am one at present in the Gatineau Hills less than 100 miles from Tremblant. I just got off the hill after 9 hours today, Monday and Tuesday, and will do 9 hours tomorrow.
My thoughts and prayers are not only with the family but also with my colleagues at Tremblant. Despite the fact that we are well-trained, there will be the inevitable "what-ifs" and "if-onlys" both as self-judgment and from conjecture from outsiders who do not feel that a lack of facts should stop them from weighing in with an opinion based on God-knows-what.
This thread was started by a reckless and irresponsible post that claimed a tree was involved, where none existed. When challenged, poster got testy and stated
"Tell you people what, i didn't even know who she was, don't follow what movie stars do, when they do it, and who they do it with.
And frankly i don't care."
Kind of begs the question then, why bother to start the thread?

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

No idea who that person is .........but that is not going to stop me from weighing in on this subject about which I am completely uninformed

Lowkee....that person was quite simply a much-loved daughter, wife, and mother whose life was cut short at age 45 in a senseless accident.
That is the tragedy.
Your post....is quite simply a tragedy of a different type.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Lowkee....that person was quite simply a much-loved daughter, wife, and mother whose life was cut short at age 45 in a senseless accident.

And from what authority are you getting this information? The rabid fans of any hollywood celebrity? Have you interviewed her husband, mother and kid(s)? Seriously, if you are going to pretty much tell off everyone in a thread, don't be spewing BS.

There are about ten thousand people waiting in line to take her place on the boob tube. If I were to guess, the only 'love' they have is the fact there is one less person ahead of them in line.

Dying from a pleasure sport begs the same sympathy as some guy crashing while flying his airplane or choking to death while eating monkey brains in South Africa. They are all things that happen as a result of people trying to make themselves feel special and dying as a result of their needless risk-taking.

The moral: People do risky things because they are fun. People die from 'fun' things all the time.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Actually, the quote was:

"I wouldn't be surprised if this lady had some pre-existing condition. A simple knock to the head shouldn't kill you."

The assumption is that there must have been a pre-existing condition for her to have died as a result of a "simple knock to the head."

This is a surprising statement to me, especially coming from someone who is a ski instructor. Its also an important statement to offer a differing view of, because it is exactly that sort of minimizing of the injury, that caused Natasha Richardson's death. In her case, however, it was Natasha Richardson herself, who bore responsibility for the consequences. She was apparently told by everyone working at the resort to go to the hospital. The instructor even accompanied her back to the hotel and advised her again to seek medical attention. The resort also summoned an ambulance, which Ms. Ricardson refused.

In my case, I pointed out by way of example, that you don't even have to strike your head on something to have a brain injury. The EMTS in my case knew I hadn't hit anything. They also could see that I had no apparent broken bones, no skin punctures, no visible bleeding. They confirmed that I knew that I had been in an accident, knew what day it was, knew what I had to drink that night (nothing), etc, etc. They still suggested that I be transported to the hospital and I didn't argue.

When I got to the hospital, all of the issues that I mentioned above were confirmed, but the doc still wanted to admit me and he explained why. Basically, he described the human brain as being a bunch of jello inside of a basketball. He then made a comparison of whipping the ball in one direction, with a quick reversal to the other direction. I still remember his words - "imagine what that would do to the jello in the ball."

BTW, while I was pretty well aware of things right after the accident, that began to change within hours. The headache began and I started to lose short term memory. By the time I got home the next week, I sometimes couldn't remember the names of people that I had known for years. This sort of thing went on for several months, gradually lessening as time went on. I found it to be a very frightening experience, because my injury really wasn't very severe in comparison to some cases.

Guys, this is not being a "weenie." Its important and this poor woman died because she adopted a similar attitude. She left a husband and two children behind. This is a public forum and all kinds of people read it. Some are astute enough to recognize bad information when they see it. Some are not.

Since I fit into the "been there, done that" category, I'm not going to just let a bit of information that could very literally kill someone pass, without offering my two cents. I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt, but let me be clear about something - I'm sorry about the feelings, not the fact that I corrected the info.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

I don't want people attacking each other here then the mods will have to step in and maybe close the thread, please everyone be civil to each other.

We are all adults with different opinions, i have said it before, opinions are like backsides everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs don't stink.

Now back to the op started this irresponsible thread blah,blah,blah.

Jeez Louise give me a break. Some simple little chat here light and low key.

In defense of the ems guys on the slope who looked her over, must be fifty people a day maybe more they look at, did this ever happen before on that slope, maybe not, maybe never again.

Is there some sign they missed that this could have happened latter maybe, maybe not ?

She refused treatment? Her decision to make.

Tragic, gonna stop the world from turning nope.

Look you ride a motorcycle, you know you should have a helmet on, don't wear it and lay down your bike, who you gonna call ghost busters?

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Sounds to me that in this particular case, the resort, the instructor and the EMTs all did exactly what they should have. They told her over and over that she needed to seek medical attention. Ms. Richardson was the one who refused medical treatment.

There have been quite a few articles about this, though. All of the ones that I have seen, point out the fact that these injuries can be very deceiving.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Look you ride a motorcycle, you know you should have a helmet on, don't wear it and lay down your bike, who you gonna call ghost busters?

Exactly. Riding a MC is dangerous enough. If I were to ride wihtout a helmet I'd merit as much pity as that lady.. none. As it turns out, driver in this area are really, really bad, so I barely ever ride anymore in fear of getting clipped. I only ride when I'm leaving the area (Blue ridge mountains) nowadays.

There is having a dangerous hobby and there is being dangerous in your hobby. Keeping with the former and being cautious is the reason, of all my riding buddies, I am the only one who has never been in an accident. And I have the most riding time of all of them. And I plan to keep it that way!

 

[JustJason]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

if your sober and not doing anything stupid then riding a MC without a helmet is fairly safe.
Its all the other idiots on the road that don't pay attention that make a MC dangerous.
Ask anybody who rides, you have a much greater sense of awareness when your cruising down the highway with 100 other cars.

 

[exsailor]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

if your sober and not doing anything stupid then riding a MC without a helmet is fairly safe.
Its all the other idiots on the road that don't pay attention that make a MC dangerous.
Ask anybody who rides, you have a much greater sense of awareness when your cruising down the highway with 100 other cars.

I've got to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. Like you, I'm a former full-time ski instructor (PSIA level II children's instructor at Gunstock). Perhaps unlike you, I am also a former professional motorcycle racer and currently put better that 8000 miles a year on my street bike. I wouldn't get on my bike without my $600 Arai helmet and I equally won't ski without a helmet. Far too many idiots out there who have no regard for their own life much less yours. While a helmet might not save my life in all circumstances, I've seen the tragic results on the slopes, on the track and on the street of a failure to wear a helmet. People who should be alive but aren't. Equally, I've walked away from things that I had no right to, because I had a helmet on. Look at it this way.......how many professional ski racers or motorcycle racers race without a helmet (or would if the sanctioning body allowed it)? My guess is none. To each his own, but since I choose to participate in hazardous activities (and because I would like to continue doing it) I will always wear a helmet.

 

[QC]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Hey guys, let's keep it civil OK? I kinda know the personalities here, and I don't believe there is anybody posting that is not compassionate towards others. Maybe not always the best choices for words, but still compassionate to their fellow humans . . .

Tim,

I understand your passion on this subject . . . I should still be patrolling, but I travel so much for work I had to give it up. Weekdays out of town and weekends on the mountain was not going to work. I worked at Mount Baldy here in So California. We have the distinction of the only So Cal hill with honest Avalanche concerns. We actually threw bombs there and cut for Avies fairly regularly and lost a guy a few years back out of bounds in a small avalanche. Cool place, but no money and limited snowmaking. We need a lot of natural, but when we get it, there is no better off trail skiing and the out of bounds stuff is amazing. Very much like Colorado spring all season.

I actually "rescued" a dead guy in the line for the beginners chair. There is literally a cliff above the chair, and he fell off of it, hit the bullwheel legs at the bottom with his head and landed in the lift line . . . Kids and blood everywhere. What a mess. The difference being he was dead when I got there (first on scene) but I still felt (feel) guilty. BTW, it was my first day after being signed off . . .

Actually two guys fell, he was the second as he went in to get the first guy's skis and fell due to the ice above the cliff (roped off) just like his buddy did. The buddy was being attended to by the lifty. I actually perfomed CPR on the dead guy and air was coming out of the gash in his head. Wonderful . . . My only "victory" that day was that I finally got his chest to rise by covering the gash with my hand, and sealing off his sinuses. Like they say "they don't die on the mounatin" so we kept it up until we had him in the Helo. The Patrol referred to me as Dr. Death from that day forward . . .

 

[JustJason]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

I wouldn't get on my bike without my $600 Arai helmet and I equally won't ski without a helmet.

And that's fine. I think you missed the spirit of my arguement though. I'm not saying that everyone needs or doesn't need a helmet. I'm saying there should be no laws about it, it should be free choice.
If you think about it, if there was no helmet laws then natural selection would be free to run it's course.

Moe Larry and Curly never died from any head injuries.

As some of you instructors and patrollers reading this... If you stopped every time someone went boom you'd never get anything done.

It also amazes me when parents have to have their kid in some kind of helmet. It doesn't matter if it's a hockey helmet or a bicycle helmet. Parents sent their kids out with something. 9 times out of 10 the kid comes out with a helmet on backwards and its 3 times to big for him anyways. But they have to have that helmet on.
How many times have you patrollers/instructors seen a parent send out their kid on a 10 degree day with a backwards bicycle helmet on but no hat, no gloves, and no snowpants?

 

[exsailor]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

.....The Patrol referred to me as Dr. Death from that day forward . . .

I've been patrolling and instructing for years and the redcoats have always had a rather morbid sense of humor...........guess it comes with the job.

 

[exsailor]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

And that's fine. I think you missed the spirit of my arguement though. I'm not saying that everyone needs or doesn't need a helmet. I'm saying there should be no laws about it, it should be free choice.
If you think about it, if there was no helmet laws then natural selection would be free to run it's course.

Moe Larry and Curly never died from any head injuries.

As some of you instructors and patrollers reading this... If you stopped every time someone went boom you'd never get anything done.

It also amazes me when parents have to have their kid in some kind of helmet. It doesn't matter if it's a hockey helmet or a bicycle helmet. Parents sent their kids out with something. 9 times out of 10 the kid comes out with a helmet on backwards and its 3 times to big for him anyways. But they have to have that helmet on.
How many times have you patrollers/instructors seen a parent send out their kid on a 10 degree day with a backwards bicycle helmet on but no hat, no gloves, and no snowpants?

I wasn't disagreeing with your assertion that it should be personal choice rather, I was disagreeing that riding a motorcycle without a helmet is essentially safe as long as you're sober and don't do anything too crazy. I had a friend hit from behind while stopped at a light a few years ago. Never saw it coming, the guy never touched his brakes. My friend was killed when he landed on his head some 85 feet down the road. I believe that he would be alive had he had a helmet on. As to the parents who insist on a helmet no matter how ill suited to the task..........I absolutely agree, and I saw it every day. I also saw our own instructors fitting kids for helmets when they had no idea how to properly do it. I started teaching a helmet fitting seminar at Gunstock at the beginning of every season for all the rental folks and Children's Center instructors. I don't know if they're still doing it, but very few kids got ill fitting rental helmets on my watch.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090320/ap_on_re_ca/canada_richardson_helmet_law


Here we go. Hey I know a way to make skiing safer. Cut down every tree on the ski slope. No tree's means no crashing into tree's. I actually had a lady ask me a few years ago if we could put the same pads that are put around the base of the lift towers around some tree's at the bottom of the hill. I practially laughed at her. She said the kids couldn't stop in time. I told her maybe they shouldn't be going up so high then.

I had a friend hit from behind while stopped at a light a few years ago. Never saw it coming, the guy never touched his brakes.

I know what you mean. Which is why in #29 I wrote...

Its all the other idiots on the road that don't pay attention that make a MC dangerous.

The best thing to do to make MC's safer is to take away all the cars.

 

[PW2]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

This is truly sad.

I've skied for years when I was younger--got multiple concussions and have never heard of such a thing as what happened to Ms. Richardson.

Stuff happens, I suppose.

We obviously don't know precisely what happened, or saw the results of the autopsy. Personally I'd suspect a pre-existing condition of some sort, but likely we'll never know.

She was a beautiful actress and by all reports a very nice person as well.

Too bad.

 

[Philthyphil]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Stop being a weenie. Name to me the people that have died because Mike Tyson, Evander Holeyfield, George Foreman, Mohammed ali... etc... punched them in the face.

Mohammed Ali has sever Parkinson's Syndrome brought about by repetitive head trama. In fact he can no longer even speak properly. Ever heard the term "punch drunk" ? The American Association of Neurological Surgeons say that 90% of boxers sustain brain injury. As for deaths...http://www.8countnews.com. is a boxing web site, just look at the number of guys that die every year from getting hit in the head. Thats why amateur boxers wear helmets.

I'v raced motorcycles for 40 years, no I was not a pro, I was good enough to be an expert....in the AMA that would be an "a" class rider...in trials, enduros, hare scrambles, and ice racing. I also race solo 2 cars and do lots of snowmobiling. In all these things I am required by the organizing body to wear a helmet, along with lots of other safety equipment. We call it dressing for the crash. I can remember when people thought it was safer to be thrown from the car rather than wear a seat belt. I can remember when fire suits were too hot to bother wearing. And how about that uncomfortable Hanns device? Do you take all that safety equipment in your boat that the Coast Guard mandates when you go out alone? Or is it your personal choice to leave it behind. Why do you think they make you have it? For the same reason they make people use all the rest of the stuff I mentioned. Because there is a large number of people too uneducated or too foolish to make the right choices, and the rest of us have to pick up their remains.

You don't think a motorcycle is dangerous ? Well I would disagree with you because I don't belive that from my experiences. You don't want to wear a helmet, be my guest and leave the gene pool. Me I'm a weenie, I'm wearing a helmet and everyone in my family is. And if you have kids and one of them starts riding a dirt bike or a sled or an atv I bet you make them be a weenie and wear one too.

someone else http://www.thestar.com/living/article/605155

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Hey guys, let's keep it civil OK? I kinda know the personalities here, and I don't believe there is anybody posting that is not compassionate towards others. Maybe not always the best choices for words, but still compassionate to their fellow humans . . ..

QC, This post started with the question is "skiing more dangerous than boating?"....which might be a reasonable discussion. But the initial post had some bad info and the thread degenerated and wandered way off topic from there. I blasted that original post as reckless and irresponsible....which I believe it was, and his followup posts ducked the issue.
That said i have always found the poster to be a stand-up guy....don't always agree with him, but I'd have a beer with him and swap stories anytime.

As to your comment about nobody posting in here that is not compassionate to others....I would mostly agree, but with one notable exception.....check this gem from a thread about the tragedy in the Gulf where three souls perished.(and that is 2 more than this skiing incident which raised the question of copmparative safety)... "Frankly, they should have all died, bunch of morons ignoring a storm advisory" and then in this thread, same guy... "Dying from a pleasure sport begs the same sympathy as some guy crashing while flying his airplane or choking to death while eating monkey brains in South Africa."
Not sure about compassion, but the sheer vitriol of the monkey brain metaphor resets the bar on stupidity.....and this in discussing someone that he admits he has never heard of previously.

Looking at the header in this particular forum, DSC, I think that post is so far beyond those target parameters listed that I guess I let my frustration show.
Nice may be a bit of a hoakie word, but it was presumably used for a reason.
Still, I am not a mod, and it is not my job to referee.

My apologies to the members....with one exception....:redface:

Tim,

I understand your passion on this subject . . . I should still be patrolling, but I travel so much for work I had to give it up. Weekdays out of town and weekends on the mountain was not going to work. I worked at Mount Baldy here in So California. We have the distinction of the only So Cal hill with honest Avalanche concerns. We actually threw bombs there and cut for Avies fairly regularly and lost a guy a few years back out of bounds in a small avalanche. Cool place, but no money and limited snowmaking. We need a lot of natural, but when we get it, there is no better off trail skiing and the out of bounds stuff is amazing. Very much like Colorado spring all season.

I actually "rescued" a dead guy in the line for the beginners chair. There is literally a cliff above the chair, and he fell off of it, hit the bullwheel legs at the bottom with his head and landed in the lift line . . . Kids and blood everywhere. What a mess. The difference being he was dead when I got there (first on scene) but I still felt (feel) guilty. BTW, it was my first day after being signed off . . .

Actually two guys fell, he was the second as he went in to get the first guy's skis and fell due to the ice above the cliff (roped off) just like his buddy did. The buddy was being attended to by the lifty. I actually perfomed CPR on the dead guy and air was coming out of the gash in his head. Wonderful . . . My only "victory" that day was that I finally got his chest to rise by covering the gash with my hand, and sealing off his sinuses. Like they say "they don't die on the mounatin" so we kept it up until we had him in the Helo. The Patrol referred to me as Dr. Death from that day forward . . .

It can be a difficult job, but satisfying in its own way. I hope that you have not had any issues with putting that incident behind you. There can be challenges....

The rest of this thread seems to be getting more civil and to be discussing issues other than the accident....about which we still do not have really good, clear facts.....and may never.

 

[wajajaja02]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

SKIING IS FAR SAFER THAN BOATING, was on the ski patrol for 23 years, and yes there are ,have been deaths from brain concussions, just like from football, bike riding and just about every thing else out side of the TV couch.
A helmet would have helped, and a better helicopter medical evacuation system in that part of Canada would have made the difference.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Sking more dangerous then boating ?

Face it... no matter what we do as humans... ABSOLUTELY NO MATTER what we do, we run the risk of death. I was fixing my garage door and had one of the 120lb insulated panels fall on my head... the roller bracket sliced my head open. Could have easily died then. Just tonight I was coughing and had a smallish potato chip in my hand that got sucked in by one of my inhales. Could have easily choked and died. Accidents happen and it's all tragic no matter which way you slice or dice it. They're all tragic no matter how trivial they seem. Someone died hitting her head while learning to ski... that's it, nothing to discuss. The whole thought of posting something about skiing being more dangerous then boating escapes me. I respect the OP but really??