Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

[StevNimrod]

I had another thread going here about water getting in the oil on a freshly built 383. It was determined to be a cracked block.

I paid a visit to the machine shop and surprisingly the owner put up little resistance and offered to fix it for free by sleeving the offending cylinder.

Here's my question: if a cylinder has a water leak in the cylinder wall the leak must go through to the water jacket; how, exactly, does a sleeve help with crack control in this case?

Should I be concerned with the sleeve or should I take the angle that everyone would be saved a lot of potential headache by starting with another block? Perhaps this time actually keeping his eyes open while Magnafluxing so cracks are seen.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Stev, you said it was a block supplied by you. I am not taking his side here because I feel your pain and feel that he should have found the crack before building the engine. However, if he had found the crack prior, you would still need to find a good block to have built. I would try to find another block and puch to have him build it (using the parts from the existing block) without charge. Short of that, you will have to accept the sleeving.

I am not sure how that will solve the water issue unless he welds the sleeve top and bottom. Then he will have to rebore to smooth out the bottom of the cylinder... I suppose it can work. I have heard of several engines (in cars) being sleeved, but not sure of the reasons.

Good luck... let us know what you decide...

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Nothing wrong with a sleeve if it's done right, an interferance fit and additional sealer something like locktite assures against leakage, trashed cylinders get sleeved everyday.
If the crack gets is into the deck then I guess the head gasket seals it I'm not sure now that you mention it?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I paid a visit to the machine shop and surprisingly the owner put up little resistance and offered to fix it for free by sleeving the offending cylinder.

Ayuh,... The guy is accepting blame,... Take it, rather than push it....
Like Eliminator says,... Nothing wrong with a sleeved block,....

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Stev, you said it was a block supplied by you. I am not taking his side here because I feel your pain and feel that he should have found the crack before building the engine. However, if he had found the crack prior, you would still need to find a good block to have built. I would try to find another block and puch to have him build it (using the parts from the existing block) without charge. Short of that, you will have to accept the sleeving.

I am not sure how that will solve the water issue unless he welds the sleeve top and bottom. Then he will have to rebore to smooth out the bottom of the cylinder... I suppose it can work. I have heard of several engines (in cars) being sleeved, but not sure of the reasons.

Good luck... let us know what you decide...

KG,

Yes and no. I think there's a fatal flaw in the logic there.

I, too, initially thought the same as you - I'd have been out a block before so it's only fair to have the option to purchase another block to have it checked and done up.

The flaw is this: had he correctly checked the block before the motor was installed I could (and gladly would) have purchased another block at that time. As it stands he didn't do it right then so now I'm stuck with the time and expense of removal and installation of the motor an unnecessary second time. Then we start getting into a bunch of unintended consequences (i.e., season now done for, Halloween costume is now a marine mechanic, etc. ).

As for the sleeve, you can't really weld cast iron. You "can" literally, but technically it almost always comes out with porosity of some sort. I know some may disagree, but my feeling has always been that once you start welding engine internals the writing is pretty much on the wall and you're avoiding the inevitable.

He claims to have done it "all the time on race engines". Which sounds impressive but isn't saying a lot since most racers I know aren't after engines for longevity, they're after them to win races. There's a guy up here who races his boat and he goes through several motors a season.

I've got the question out to a few others, but thought I'd see what you guys say. The crack definitely will have to go somewhere, unless it's correctly pinned and I'm starting to think that in this case sleeving might not be too much past JB welding it up .

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Nothing wrong with a sleeve if it's done right, an interferance fit and additional sealer something like locktite assures against leakage, trashed cylinders get sleeved everyday.
If the crack gets is into the deck then I guess the head gasket seals it I'm not sure now that you mention it?

E,

That's basically what I'm hearing - nothing wrong if it's done right. That said, if someone can't properly check a block for cracks how much stock do you put in sleeve installation being right. I'm just trying to lay this all out there to make the most informed decision.

What I'm trying to avoid (and I think what he's trying to avoid) is having this come back again. That said, I'd even be willing to split the cost on the block and let him keep the old one (or whatever gets worked out) just to minimize the chance of more error.

As far as crack propagation goes, it will undoubtedly grow unless they pin it first. The only variables are how fast and where. I'm not as concerned about it going up as I am about it going down, past the o-ring at the bottom of the sleeve, allowing water into the oil again.

I guess it'll come down to whether he feels the work to machine for the sleeve is about the same as whatever we work out on the block.

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I have seen rare vintage blocks with cylinders blown out and chunks missing being restored with sleeves, it's the internal webbing that strengthens the block not the cylinder. They cut the cylinder leaving a step at the bottom as a stop for the sleeve, the top exess is then machined to the deck.
I hairline crack can go undetected easily if nothing was suspect and block wasn't magnifluxed, you would think they should have magnifluxed it.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Ayuh,... The guy is accepting blame,... Take it, rather than push it....
Like Eliminator says,... Nothing wrong with a sleeved block,....

Mr. Bond,

Not trying to get in your mustache on this, but are you suggesting that I be happy doing the same work twice because someone I paid to do something right the first time needs two chances? When I mentioned he offered little resistance I meant that in light of a few conversations I had yesterday with people who had work done there and had a hard time getting him to make good. He needs another irate customer about as much as I need the motor to not get fixed. So I just walked in, asked if he and I could talk in private and we squared up away from the wife and fellas.

My question about sleeving was poorly worded. What I'm trying to determine is if it's the ideal way to go about this, or if I should focus on working something out involving a block that doesn't need a sleeve. I don't want to have to go through this a third time.

That said, maybe nothing is wrong with a sleeved block inasmuch as nothing is wrong with these items mentioned in this post.

Maybe they would have worked fine, but is it worth the risk if there is a better alternative?

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I'm not a mopar guy, a 383 sounds Mopar to me, and I'm thinking your not going to find them just laying around anymore? aren't they like 70's blocks, or is it the 340 thats hard to come by?

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I'm not a mopar guy, a 383 sounds Mopar to me, and I'm thinking your not going to find them just laying around anymore? aren't they like 70's blocks, or is it the 340 thats hard to come by?

Chevy. It's a 350 bored .030 over with a 400 crank.

I'm hearing from a lot of guys that sleeving is usually done with rare vintage blocks when preservation is an issue (i.e., numbers matching, some guys want certain nickel content, etc.) but we're talking about a SBC 350 block made from 1996 until 2000 (or thereabouts). They're pretty much everywhere.

 

[havasuboatman]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Having worked, and been certified, as a automotive machinist, I can tell you with absolute certainty that a sleeved cylinder will work just fine. It's a common and cost effective way to save a block.
The block will be bored nearly 1/4 inch over,(the sleeve wassl are at least 1/8 in. thick) then the sleeve will be pressed in using sealant, the sleeve will then be bored and honed to match the piston.
It is a commonly accepted practice and approved by AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association).
The fact that water temperature and pressure in a marine application is not as high only adds to the reliability.

 

[picklenjim]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I have had a couple of 454 blocks sleeved in my time and never had a problem with them. One I am still running after 6 years. It's bored .100" over and I run a 1/4" stroker crank in it. However as plentiful and cheap as 350 blocks are I would probably just replace it.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Having worked, and been certified, as a automotive machinist, I can tell you with absolute certainty that a sleeved cylinder will work just fine. It's a common and cost effective way to save a block.
The block will be bored nearly 1/4 inch over,(the sleeve wassl are at least 1/8 in. thick) then the sleeve will be pressed in using sealant, the sleeve will then be bored and honed to match the piston.
It is a commonly accepted practice and approved by AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association).
The fact that water temperature and pressure in a marine application is not as high only adds to the reliability.

Havasu came with the credentials!

I'm just trying to learn about it so I can understand. Boring .250 over puts you into the water jacket, right? Then you press the sleeve in and the sealant + interference fit makes a "new" water jacket as opposed to the water jacket being made in casting?

I agree with you on water temp and pressure being helpful, but how does running WOT all day affect it, if at all?

I guess what I'm trying to avoid is giving the block any more places to leak from than it already has.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I have had a couple of 454 blocks sleeved in my time and never had a problem with them. One I am still running after 6 years. It's bored .100" over and I run a 1/4" stroker crank in it. However as plentiful and cheap as 350 blocks are I would probably just replace it.

Jim,

Hate to ask the obvious but I have to: what was the fate of the other 454?

I hear you on the supply of 350s. I'm trying to weigh this carefully so fall doesn't turn into "how fast can I pull the motor THIS year".

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Here's my question: if a cylinder has a water leak in the cylinder wall the leak must go through to the water jacket; how, exactly, does a sleeve help with crack control in this case?

When they sleeve it, the complete cylinder bore is bored completely out of the block and a new one is pressed in and the cut down to size, then rebored to the porper size. I have had many of these done and as long as the builder knows his stuff then your good.

Just FYI. i had a motor (327 chevy) about 20 years ago, it ran good but was really tired. yanked it, bored it, total rebuild and BAMM. Water in the oil. pulled it, tore it down, coulnt see anything wrong. reassembled it, still water in the oil. pulled it again and took the bare block to a friends machine sho and he MagnaFluxed it and found the crack. Sleeved it and all was grand again.
Ford 302 blocks (stockers) are good for this when you build them as race motors. They can only take about 2 race seasons then they are junk.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

When they sleeve it, the complete cylinder bore is bored completely out of the block and a new one is pressed in and the cut down to size, then rebored to the porper size. I have had many of these done and as long as the builder knows his stuff then your good.

Just FYI. i had a motor (327 chevy) about 20 years ago, it ran good but was really tired. yanked it, bored it, total rebuild and BAMM. Water in the oil. pulled it, tore it down, coulnt see anything wrong. reassembled it, still water in the oil. pulled it again and took the bare block to a friends machine sho and he MagnaFluxed it and found the crack. Sleeved it and all was grand again.
Ford 302 blocks (stockers) are good for this when you build them as race motors. They can only take about 2 race seasons then they are junk.

I guess I need a picture or something since I'm having a bit of a time understanding this. I've always thought that the reason .060 over was the max for SBCs is that you start running the risk of cutting into the water jacket. Boring the whole cylinder out, to my mind, means that you are well into the water jacket and the sleeve is what forms the new water jacket. Is this correct?

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

KG,

Yes and no. I think there's a fatal flaw in the logic there.

I, too, initially thought the same as you - I'd have been out a block before so it's only fair to have the option to purchase another block to have it checked and done up.

The flaw is this: had he correctly checked the block before the motor was installed I could (and gladly would) have purchased another block at that time. As it stands he didn't do it right then so now I'm stuck with the time and expense of removal and installation of the motor an unnecessary second time. Then we start getting into a bunch of unintended consequences (i.e., season now done for, Halloween costume is now a marine mechanic, etc. ).

As for the sleeve, you can't really weld cast iron. You "can" literally, but technically it almost always comes out with porosity of some sort. I know some may disagree, but my feeling has always been that once you start welding engine internals the writing is pretty much on the wall and you're avoiding the inevitable.

He claims to have done it "all the time on race engines". Which sounds impressive but isn't saying a lot since most racers I know aren't after engines for longevity, they're after them to win races. There's a guy up here who races his boat and he goes through several motors a season.

I've got the question out to a few others, but thought I'd see what you guys say. The crack definitely will have to go somewhere, unless it's correctly pinned and I'm starting to think that in this case sleeving might not be too much past JB welding it up .

Stev, I am with you. You already paid ot have this done right, therefore the crack should have been found and an alternative decision made at that time. The fact that is was not, leads you to be leary of any work done by this shop, weather in building another block or properly sleeving this one to save it...

Trusting his work a second time in either situation is going to be a call you have to make. You know if you go somewhere else, you are going to have to pay again. Otherwise, you will have to find a way to trust him to not have to fork out much more money... I agree he missed something and I feel that he is liable for it... but I doubt he will pay another shop for you.

I would definetly propose to him to take your parts and build another block after good check (Maybe have someone else check it) and you split the cost of the block. Otherwise, you might have to settle for the sleeve. Hearing these other guys, the sleeve is a good a viable option, as long as it is done right... And I know that is where your trust issue ultimitley lies...

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Stev, I think the .060 over is the max to ensure the walls are still thick enough to not cause damage to the water jack or cause premature cracking of the cylinder walls...

.250 over will not totally remove the cylinder, it just pushes the walls very thin. I really do not think that they will actually go that far. If the sleve is 1/8 thick, a .250 bore will be too big... I am not knocking you, but I think you are a little overworried about this. I do not blame you one bit. But sleeving it will leave a thin cylinder wall then the sleeve is pressed and sealed in. No worries... if done right...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

The fact that is was not, leads you to be leary of any work done by this shop, weather in building another block or properly sleeving this one to save it...

Trusting his work a second time in either situation is going to be a call you have to make. You know if you go somewhere else, you are going to have to pay again. Otherwise, you will have to find a way to trust him to not have to fork out much more money... I agree he missed something and I feel that he is liable for it... but I doubt he will pay another shop for you.

Hearing these other guys, the sleeve is a good a viable option, as long as it is done right... And I know that is where your trust issue ultimitley lies...

And we all thought trust issues were limited to relationships

It seems the common theme here is sleeving is only as good as the person who does it. Which, given the current situation, might not be saying much.

You know, if it didn't involve water, and other passengers on board + other people on the lake it'd be a bit easier to make the call. But we go through a lot of hurdles and precautions for safety on the lake (fuel pumps, starters, etc.) and skimp on other things sometimes.

I'd have a hard time trusting his sleeve job. Maybe he does good work on race motors, but they aren't necessarily after the same things we are. Hopefully we can reason and come up with a mutually beneficial solution involving another block and actually checking the f'n thing correctly this time.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Good luck Stev, let us know how it goes...