Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

18rabbit

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Well, I just a couple days mulling over the 66-page certification specification for those little Ancor ring terminals/connectors. The document appears to have been created in Sept 2000, revised in Oct 2001, and revised again in Oct 2002, where it has been ever since and will be until 2006. In the spirit of Swimmin’ For Shore, I now ‘feel scientific’ about my understanding of those little critters and can state without any reservation that any soldering of a properly crimped connector is an absolute waste.<br /><br />It is imperative any terminal/connector/splice used needs to be installed/applied as per the manufacturer’s instruction. There is nothing in the spec that specifically states solder shall not be used on a crimp, but everything else about the spec details how solder is not needed. The only cert test that may fail as a result of using solder is the testing for function and capacity during heat. That test requires the connector to be fully functional, and everything intact when heated to 225F above ambient temp. Depending on the alloy, solder melts between 244F and somewhere up over 400F. The testing for freezing, flexing, and vibration may or may not take out any solder.<br /><br />The spec requires the nylon insulator stay intact without splitting during all testing, except testing for corrosion. Don’t know how you could apply solder with the insulator on the terminal…but then applying shrink tubing after soldering puts an insulator back on so that’s kind of moot. The factory installed nylon insulator must sustain a 20 lb pull between the insulator and the ring connector for 1 min without displacing.<br /><br />As far a pullout testing, the conductor needs to stay securely fastened without damage to any of the strands. Here are the stress (weight) values for pullout testing of common AWG sizes. These same values are used for connectors intended as crimp only, spring clamp only, screw-down clamp only, and soldering only. The values for secureness testing are in parentheses.<br /><br />AWG 6 – 50 lbs (39.7 lbs)<br />AWG 8 – 45 lbs (17.6 lbs)<br />AWG 10 – 40 lbs (11 lbs)<br />AWG 12 – 35 lbs (11 lbs)<br />AWG 14 – 25 lbs (6.6 lbs)<br />AWG 16 – 15 lbs (4.4 lbs)<br />AWG 18 – 10 lbs (4.4 lbs) <br /><br />Whether you crimp and/or solder, the conductor (wire) is the weak link when a connector is subjected to stress values above those given. As such, the pullout test limits the length of the conductor used to prevent any stretching of the copper conductor from diminishing the stress on the connection (crimp or solder). Note: If you exceed these values for the application on your boat, you need to have a system of stress relief that does not include the conductor. <br /><br />Testing for corrosion resistance is done to the specifications adopted by the Department of Defense. It involves suspending the connector 1-1/2 inches above 600ml aqueous ammonia (with a specific gravity of 0.94) in a 12x12x12 inch sealed container for 10-days at 94F (+/- 4F). Upon inspection with a 25x glass, there can be no signs of cracking.<br /><br />There are a gazillion other tests … 66 pages worth that covers anything and everything you can image. There are even sequences for the testing to ensure the greatest opportunity for failure…temps to –10F, then heating and flexing … Way more stuff that can be imparted here…way more stuff then any connector will ever see on your boat. <br /><br />The bottom line is this: Ancor double crimp connectors/terminals must be used with a double crimp … and your done. There is nothing to be gained from adding solder to an approved connector designed for crimping, except for a perceived peace of mind…but you may end up reducing the overall quality of the connector and its insulation.<br /><br />There was some discussion about which side of the barrel is to receive the indent during crimping. This is from Ancor’s current catalog, page 30:<br /><br />
crimp.jpg
<br /><br />As was mentioned above, you must follow the manufacturer’s instructions on how to apply/install any connector/terminal for it to meet the certification spec. That means, regardless of previous education or experience, Ancor’s non-insulated terminals should only be crimped as illustrated above. If another manf specifies differently, you should crimp their terminals differently, as they specify.
 

lawyertob

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

18rabbit,<br /><br /> Thanks for the information. It is nice to see a little fact in place of bare opinion. :) <br /><br /> I am kind of curious as to why the wires pull out of the butt connectors so much easier though. Does it address that somewhere in the 66 pages?<br /><br />Thanks again,<br />Joe
 

BillP

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Well said and thanks for doing the work.<br />bp
 

jlinder

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

18rabbit<br /><br />Thanks for the research and work.
 

Jquest

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Crimping is good , but it will never give the same flow of electricity as a nicely wetted solder connection. I work in electronics fixing boards and radios for an aviation repair station. When it comes to vibrations, corrosions and other stuff that can effect an electrical connection...nothing beats solder. But like I said...a good crimped connection will do. I just prefer to solder whenever I can. :)
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling, tastes great<br /><br />Sorry, couldn't resist. Now I need a beer. I think the only thing we can agree on is that scotchlocks are evil. Without some serious testing of all factors(corrosion resistence, stress durability, etc.) done in a scientific environment , the solder guys will still be solder guys and the crimp guys will still be crimp guys and the newbies will be getting headaches. I have some ideas for testing all this, but I have no time. Fishing is a higher priority. Don't get me wrong, I still appreciate y'all the effort put into this. Thanks to all but now I am worn out on the subject. :rolleyes:
 

kd6nem

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Good stuff, Rabbit.<br />Let us not forget to emphasize the need for the APPROPRIATE crimp tool. Makes a huge difference- without quality connectors and the right tool it will be just another cheesy connection liable to fail at the worst possible time. The nice little made in china crimp tool set with connectors you get for $5 at the local auto parts store or even rad shak will simply not make an adequate marine grade connection. This is a place where name brands mean something.
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

You always can count on a liberal, or anyone from California to make statements like the above. Common sense...out the window. Gee maybe we should worry about the enviromental impact of soldering....it could be causing global warming and depleting the Ozone. Oh, I almost forgot, the imigrant workers can't solder correctly......so we better let them bend a peice of metal around a wire and say it's better than soldering.<br />What a total joke !
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

It's so amusing, the people that ACTUALLY GET PAID to work on and design electronic components, all have the same opinion. Yet the weekend warriors that spout manufacturer's spec sheets think they are educating people. I am happy that you can read. Now, then, If your actual experience matches the following, I would be happy to debate you on the subject. Degree in Electrical Engineering, ABYC certified in electrical, HAM radio license of general or above. Not necessary, however helpful, First Engineer or Officer of a 50 gross ton Passenger Class cruise Vessel. If there is anyone else of those qualifications that has the "opinion" that crimping any low voltage connection is superior to a properly applied solder connection, please post.
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

By the way, I believe it was Rabbit that posted under "boat topics" that your "Marine antenna should be a MINIMUM of 5 meters above deck, to limit exposure from radio waves"....Rabbit, that is approximately 16.4 feet above deck.....who , in their right mind, would mount their vhf antenna 16.4 feet above deck on a pleasure boat ?<br />Sure, some sail boats have antenna's on their mast, but to tell someone that their vhf marine antenna should be a MINIMUM of 16 feet above them....or they are subjecting their family to dangerous radio waves......THAT IS CRAZY!!!<br />PLEASE, get some real information, or state that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, but you would like to post, just the same.<br />GOD, I want to give up !!!
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

This is kind of funny you won’t see solder making any kind of connections out side of the electronic world such as circuit boards and perhaps some custom built stuff<br /><br />Every terminal strip, circuit breaker, any type of motor control every wire in every industry is clamped in place by some method OTHER than solder once it leaves the circuit board. They are all built to safely connect and retain the wire through its temperature cycle safely by doing something as simple as turning a screw to the correct torque <br /><br />I can just see and electrician trying to make a safe connection inside the circuit breaker box in your house with a soldering iron but why let the logic of every electric code in the world get in the way<br /><br />I am completely confused buy the fact that electronic work is being compared with electric work which are two completely different things other than the fact that both do control electricity <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Sorry, but I couldn't stand it. Had to jump in again.<br /><br />
I am completely confused buy the fact that electronic work is being compared with electric work which are two completely different things other than the fact that both do control electricity
In that case:<br /><br />I am completely confused buy the fact that marine electric work is being compared with home/indistrial electric work which are two completely different things other than the fact that both do control electricity. Is there alot of salt water in your house or busness?<br /><br />Worked as an electrician for a few years. Yes I would never solder a connection on a electric motor or a breaker panel. Would be a waste. But in the harsh salt water environment, I would. I've seen what happens to both because I have both on my boat. Solder is far more corrosion resistant. Anyone else had both on their boat? Which lasted the test of time? I've had exposed solder/crimp connections last far longer than exposed crimp connections. Sure the solder connections didn't last forever, but the crimp ones got to a certain point and quickly self-destructed. Where they(solder connections) failed is either the ring side of the connector or the wire where the conductor was exposed, the solder connection was still good as new. As far as power handling capacity, the weak point will always be the connector to matter how it is attached except of course in the case of a poorly crimped connection which is not something we are considering in this discussion. The connector is a single thin piece of metal compared to wire which is stranded and composed of alot more metal. If you are pushing enough current through the wire or connector it is heating up, you didn't have a setup that was adequate in the first place. By the way your connectors. What are they coated with? Ever buy marine grade electronics? What are the wire ends coated with? That's right, everything is tinned. Gee I wonder why. As far as teh manufactures specs, they sell what they can sell the most of. Most are not willing to solder a connection after crimping and re-insulate it. I do because I don't want to do it again in 5 years when it fails.
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

red<br /><br />just like you follow code when you work on a house or have to answer for it should something bad happen <br /><br />anyone repairing a boat should follow marine code or should something bad happen they will have to answer for it<br /><br /> and there is a lot of water in my work on land due to the FDA regs we follow everything gets washed down boiled and steamed includeing the electric boxs and just like a boat it gets in there over time and takes its toll but we still cant think we are smarter than the people who made the rules <br /><br />tommays
 

tvpear12

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

I think i am ready for finals now. when do we take the test? when do we graduate? :D opinions are like #$$holes every one has one. :D
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

f602d856.jpg
<br /><br />I changed this merc trim pump frame this year the damage done by salt spray speaks for it self <br /><br />Yet it worked electrically all the original 9 year old connections still functioned after reinstalling the parts on a new frame and recoating them with liquid electric tape it still works fine <br /><br />I did correct the problems with the original install that allowed it to get wet all the time but not find a problem with how the approved method of making connections had lasted<br /><br /><br />tommays
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

I don't recall seeing any code that required liquid electrical tape. I don't recall one that requires tools, spare prop, spare battery, GPS/fishfinder, trim tabs, a gas gauge, a tach, and a spotlight but I carry all of those. For some of us the bare minimum dosen't seem like enough, or alot of us have lost our minds. And I bet on your land you don't have any salt water penetrating your devices on your land. The bottom of my console is open. It gets nailed directly on a regular basis. Any salt residue on your connections at the end of the day? I bet you have alot of sealed PVC or galv conduit. Wasn't a factory option on my boat.
 

18rabbit

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Joe – you are right! I went back and reviewed the tables. I combined values for two totally separates test. The smaller number is a ‘secureness’ test that involves attaching a weight (the numbers I had in parentheses) at the bottom of a vertical conductor, and fastening the top to a motor that rotates (lifts and drops) the spliced conductor with the weight on it. The “pullout” test values are the same for all connectors (of the same AWG size)…that is the amount of pull from a tension-testing machine. Both secureness and pullout testing are repeated in the static heating test sequence and the mechanical test sequence for all connectors.<br /><br />The testing spec is referred to as ANSI/UL 486C. It is developed by the American National Standards Institute and Underwriters Laboratory, and adopted by the Department of Defense. I’m giving you all that info so hopefully someone can find the spec online. I do not know of a source for public access to it. It is © protected, like the ABYC specs. UL doesn’t sell it, and ANSI wants you to pay for a membership to access it.<br /><br />The DoD adoption of the std is a pretty good indication any connectors that pass will not readily succumb to corrosion. However, the DoD seems to have unlimited funding … military equipment receives routine testing and maintenance so any part starting to corrode would likely be repaired before failure was experienced. I agree with Redmopar, I think protecting against corrosion is a more important issue.<br /><br />The important thing I got from all that testing is the amount of force needed to separate a crimped connector from the conductor. I don’t need to be grabbing the plastic insulator to separate pin or spade connectors…I can just grab the wire and yank! :D
 

tommays

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

red<br />just read the service manual it is the recomened method of protecting the conections and if you crimp or solder it will still result in a connection that will withstand the elements longer than one that has not been coated and i think everyone wants the longest lasting connection<br /><br />as far as land there are many things that are much worse than saltwater like hair gel or shampoo both products attack and even create galavnic problems on 316 SS <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

crab bait

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

it sure makes sense NOW..!!<br /><br /> a crimped or double crimp terminal is better than a crimped an solder terminal.. <br /><br />especially in a saltwater enviroment.. crimped no solder sure is the way to go.. <br />yeah right..
 

redmopar

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Re: Solder vs. Crimp - Part 3 - Feeling Scientific

Ya missed my point. None of my OMC service manuals mention liquid electrical tape. Should I stop using it? No. Dosen't matter. Both of us have the intelligence to know that there is a better method out there. The manuals are the bare minimum to meet the manufactures design specs. We are looking to go beyond that. Just because the manual dosen't have solder mentioned, dosen't mean it is not a viable and better method. <br /><br />You mentioned the shampoo and gel eating through 316 SS. OK. I see you missed my point there too. Your electrical connections are still protected by junction boxes. Most boats have none. Your trim/tilt motor you mentioned earler didn't corrode. I assume the connections were within the sealed housing. I spend a few days out int the flats and my connections under the colsole often have salt caked on them. There is nothing between the connections and the salt air/water except what I add to them. So i'll say this again. The original crimped and liq elec tape coated connections are trashed. I have had to replace about 1/2 of them because the coating degraded. Corrosion started from within the crimp. The wire corroded and became brittle. There were a few accesories added. They were soldered and covered with electrical TAPE. It fell off years ago of course. Those connections are still holding. All of these connections are 20 years old including the solder ones. 50% failure on the crimps. No failure on the solders even though they were unprotected. Salt got into the crimps and electrolysis accelerated the failure and they have been failing all of the boat's life. The soldered connections had no room for the salt to penitrate the inside of the connections.
 
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