? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

[fshngho]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

SNS, you threw out the idea and people far more intelligent than I responded with their expertise and opinions. My guess is they were not out to insult you or put your idea down but rather try to help you out. What you are talking about (as everyone has said) is interesting, however it could turn out to be a huge waste of time & money. Granted its your time and your money and you will do as you please, but dont ask the questions if you don't want the answers. I am a simple fisherman but I look at it this way, if I take two 16' aluminum jonboats and make a 20' jonboat, I believe it would flex and even more, be unstable, UNLESS I were to widen it and reinforce it. But that wouldn't change the skin thickness and I would need thicker skin to support the extra ribs and such. That being said, I would be better off starting from scratch.Without a doubt you have ambition, your a tugboat captain, own a window film co., own ( and maintain) 7 real estate properties, buy-rebuild-flip boats. Money may not be a problem for you, and thats great. More impotant factors are involved here however. The safety of yourself and passengers tops the list. Good luck with your decision and/or project.

 

[allpoints360]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

I think you should just do it. Don't listen to all these Old Salts. (Their brains probably stop every once in a while.)

I would love to see it! Do you think you could you put it on YouTube?

Good luck!

 

[erikgreen]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

On the one hand, this sounds like quite an interesting idea. To me, that means it'll be a great learning experience. I've done plenty of things that other people would consider daft with regard to projects, and I've achieved my main goal with them, which was learning how to do them and what not to do. Sometimes I built something good, sometimes not, but I always learn.

You can theoretically turn any boat into any other boat. What you can't do is do it with intuitive engineering. Intuitive engineering is the sort of rough guess plus fudge factor stuff that makes people build "super tough" fiberglass layups by sloshing on lots of extra resin and mat, or "high powered" marine engines by installing NOS, an aggressive crank, high compression pistons, and a massive carb setup. More is better, right? And if you triple the thickness it'll be so much stronger than before it's got to be enough?

I define IE as the assumption that our existing knowledge of what's good and what works when building things transfers to a new field of interest without alteration. Everyone hates being the "new guy" and it's painful to pay your dues over and over again learning something new. It's much more emotionally satisfying to assume that being an expert in auto mechanics or installing drywall makes you good at some part of building boats. What it really turns out to be is sloppy thinking and self deception. Sure, some skills may transfer, but not the ability to do a successful build on instinct and estimates.

You have to use real engineering... understand why boat designers do what they do, calculate out the math to figure out exactly how strong something will be to make sure it's good enough, and ignore what you think should be "common sense". Don't trust your own gut, verify things.

For a boat, this means learning some marine architecture. Just the basics to start... get some books, hang out on boatdesign.net, and soak things up.

Don't confuse the folks here saying "that won't work" with them saying "your idea is stupid" or "you're an idiot". Despite appearances we're not a bunch of old fashioned wooden boaters living in the past century (well, some of us aren't, anyway). We do things differently when we can and when it makes sense.

There was a great thread on another board about a couple guys taking a big boat and adding extra superstructure, length, and features onto it without doing the math... it's been deleted unfortunately. Smart guys (a teacher and an engineer I think) and they made plans and carried them out well... but the end product almost flipped over on its first launch. They spent another year adding tacked on sponsons... it eventually floated, but I doubt it passed its stability trials, so they likely couldn't use it. Something like a million bucks dropped in a hole in the water.

It's ok to risk coming out with a bad boat provided you don't mind losing the money... but losing your life taking an intuitively engineered project boat offshore a long distance at high speed would be tragic.

Erik

 

[Comoxsam]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

You keep on using an aircraft as an example. Aircraft are not "just riveted together" They consist of welded frames with sheeting riveted to the frames.

Really? Which aircraft are you speaking of?

 

[Kiwifisher]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Really? Which aircraft are you speaking of?

All aircraft really. There is no common aircraft that does not have an airframe covered with a skin, aluminum or otherwise. The airframes are put together using a combination of welding, bolting and riveting.

I don't understand what the issue is as I was trying to point out to SNS that like an aircraft is not just sheets of ali riveted together, his boat should also have a well constructed frame to work properly.

I'm definately not trying to give anyone lessons in building aircraft, that we'll leave to more knowlegeable guys like yourself.

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

You keep on using an aircraft as an example. Aircraft are not "just riveted together" They consist of welded frames with sheeting riveted to the frames.

Your scheme sounds like a lot of fun to do BUT I not think it will be suitable for offshore work. Especially hanging 2 x 150 hp outboards off the back. Besides the obvious design flaws, you also need at least 1/4 inch plate for the hull as well as strong ribs/frames as well as big stringers all made from 1/4 inch ali. Anything less and the boat will flex and buckle and cause stress fractures.

You ask for advice and opinions but if they are not what you want to hear you discard it.

There are plenty of plans available to build boats from scratch, rather go that route and save yourself lots of heartache.

Advice I am asking for! Not criticisim......

Thanks for the advice...


Maybe your right about getting some plans and building a boat that I can have for the rest of my days...


I just had this idea and really want to give it a shot...


Even if I used it as a bay boat it would look and be a fun story to tell....


But in the end it wouldnt be what I want if I diddnt build it correctly if i go this route......................

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Also If you look at a superstructure of a b52 bomber in 3 pieces up close and personal besides the skelital frame bolts all 6 of them the rivets is what held them togeather... NO WELDS THERE!...

Also eveyone is thinking that i am just going to cut 2 boats and rivet them togeather and go fishing....

Nope thats not me... I am a perfectionist nut that has never perfected a thing (in my eyes) but to others is better then perfect!
Im always thinking changing updating and improoving things in my life as a whole..... Especially when it comes to my cars and boats and houses.....


Welll I have stated numerous times I was thinking of reinforce the stringers and frame work and re-rivet and add some rivets as well etc...

I also know how to weld aluminum and I originally had asked on advice if I should or should or should not weld the 2 togeather along with rivets etc?????.... (I am not a master welder)

So there has been some very valid points and input on my behalf as far as questions go and concerns of basic thesis.....

I think I asked alot of good questions that havent been answered as well so I will hit the books...


Also i hear alot of people that are saying that this would cost me alot of dime$$$$

Well I don't think so compared to a new boat or a brand new custom plated boat... Those are 70K and up and this project will never breach 20K Im not even thinking 15K

Also im just looking for a less expencive route and to give myself somthing fun to do and to learn as well over the boaring winter months....(Its just a idea)


I do understand about my safety and others safety and I am not just some back yard hill billy throwing togeather a flat bottom gater boat... anotherwords im not going to be moving foward with the idea without learning a hell of alot more then I know as of now, And i do know i have alot to learn, because I know nothing about boat building but I do know alot about other things and I consider myself a pritty well rounded handy person who is a DIYer type.


I will be reading some books as adviced etc, and in the next month or 2 I will decide on want to do......


I did develope this thread to heAR EVERYONES input and I am not putting a single person down or there advice down....


I just don't need to be insulted is all.... But what are you going to do......


So with that being said I do appricaite all the posts and advice....


I am finding this to be even more of a interesting topic and build idea then I prevoiusly thought from all the input and open questions and unknown things im being schooled on...


And I have always been a thick headed person who does what he wants but I do want to do this the right way and in a safe way as well (if it can be done)...

And if it cant be done and I back down from the idea maybe I will learn enough to build a custom tinny plated hull... And if not in 5 years i will just order a hull and then put the rest togeather the way I want..... So we will see..


I do not see what the big deal or the (big expence) is in this project. But what do I know... I guess I have alot to learn..

Its easy for me to rebuild these aluminum boats and make them better in my eyes but with this idea I had I really diddnt think it would have been as involved as its getting or sounding,,,,

Reinforcing thes hulls I did not think would be as big a deal as some people are saying, because of the people I know who can make me anything I want out of all diff mill's of aluminum as far as stringers and skelital structures....


From some advice I have gotten so far the main question is - width, placing the skelital structure, flex, And strength of the bonding procedure.... And the thickness of the aluminum im working with,,,,,,,,



I could have bigger heavier stringers made and as far as any welding is concerened myself and a good elder friend and my father are all welders and have welded aluminum more then many regular none professionals and in my eyes my father and my older friend who has been welding for 30yrs plus are pritty darn good at it after seeing alot of there work over the years... I have learned alot from them along the way!



But I do love to hear peoples thoughts! After I sink my brain into some crazy mathamatical equastions on how to build a sound vessel and skelital structure etc, and the (CORRECT WAY) etc ....... And then thinking a little more... I will have a decision made of weather im going to go foward or not!


I do appreciate all ideas and input again! please keep them coming Thanks

 

[Shife]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Erik Green's post was excellent. It's too bad it went completely over your head.


Yes... your boat is exactly like a B52 bomber because they both used rivets in their construction. Strong like bull. And heck... a B52 can fly, so this idea must be golden.

Potential flaw in your logic: Wasn't the Titanic riveted? Better weld that already brittle Starcraft plate together. The ductility was cooked out of that sheet long ago. You're a real good welder though so taking the heat treatment of the plate into consideration is just getting in the way of gettin' this thing stuck together.


Seriously though... You're still trying to pole vault. Slow down. Stop planning and start learning. With the skills you profess to have and the budget you claim to be working with you could build a sick custom tinny.

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

LoL Shife you have a way with words.....


And yes green posted his thoughts with class and elegants, And it diddnt go over my head at all. I absorbed it very well thank you!

A shiefe you know what... I can read all the books in the world but I will still never be a navel engineer. I went to school for (diesel engineering) Then some how fell into the window tinting business, Knoledge is power in this case! And in this case i have the lower hand in boat building!

My idea i had thought was good and would be fun, now its just becoming a downer, I was excited about maybe trying it out, with the skills and knoledge god gave me, but now im deffinatly thinking twice about it.


So Thanks for your input Shiefe and Green you guys seem very knoledgable on a subject that I just am not....

 

[Comoxsam]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

All aircraft really. There is no common aircraft that does not have an airframe covered with a skin, aluminum or otherwise. The airframes are put together using a combination of welding, bolting and riveting.

I don't understand what the issue is as I was trying to point out to SNS that like an aircraft is not just sheets of ali riveted together, his boat should also have a well constructed frame to work properly.

I'm definately not trying to give anyone lessons in building aircraft, that we'll leave to more knowlegeable guys like yourself.

Interesting no welds holding the fuselage together on the aircraft I've been working on for past 13 years.

The point I was trying to make is that there are millions of aircraft fuselage, wings, etc all put together with rivets not welding. Semi-monoque design with aluminum ribs, stringers, formers, spars, bulkheads, and skins. All held together by rivets, no welds. I'm not talking about Airbus 380's or 767's here. We are comparing aircraft to small aluminum boats here right?

Anyhow I'm not saying an aircraft fuselage can pound thru waves but the idea that this project cannot be built strong enough without a welded structure is wrong IMO.

From what I understand the aluminum boat industry spawned from aviation construction methods so I think making comparisons is completely fair. Every old aluminum boat and airplane out there is a testament to how sturdy a structure can be built with aluminum and rivets.


Something that I'm wondering about...

Didn't Starcraft make an 18ft Islander too? What differences in materials, thickness, hull shape, hull measurements are there from that to a 26ft Islander? Did Starcraft add 8 ft to the smaller boat and keep everything pretty much the same or did they redesign everything? If so how much thicker, wider, etc is the 26ft? Just wondering?

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Ok after making numerous phone calls and doing some reading and thinking etc I am leaning towards making this idea come to life!


Rivets are strong enough to conjoin the 2 hulls togeather and I wont need welds at all!

As far as the stringers etc they all need to be removed and scraped.


If I do go ahead with this idea I will be making a fully welded internal skelital structure slash/stringer system/floorsupport etc..


After I clean up the new conjoined inner hull I will install the structure and rivet it in place. After the structure is riveted in I will gluvit the entire inner hull and structure.


Then after I will ryno line the entire inner hull and side walls taping off key areas on the new structure for later welding the floor in place.


I will then build a wooden floor template to use and do work on the boat etc. I will then run all wiring plumbing and do mock up etc...


I will Then do fuel placement then foam! Then I will add the outboard bracket using bolts and very thick gauged alloy as a inner backing etc as well as making custom transom support braces etc all riveted in place...


Then this one piece welded structure will have the floor welded on top of it to seal it up making a self bailing hull! I will be making this a self bailing hull with access ports as i stated when I started the thread idea.


But before I weld the floor on I will sea trial the boat with fuel tanks filled with water and a smaller external tank running the outboards to ensure i am satisfied with full fuel placement!

If I am satisfied I will then weld it all up! And add all acc and a t top tower and go fishing!


This idea is deff doable i found by talking with several builders of custom tinny vessels and if I do go ahead with this idea it will be well under 20K and as strong as any other boat out there and im very confident!


I have spoken to a couple of local boat builders and 3 out of state tinny builders and if properly put togeather there should not be any issues at all!


If I do go ahead with the build I will be having the structural plans professionaly blue printed and at a affordable price with the conjoined hulls measurements etc. (I thought it would be more $ only $300.00 to $900.00)

I will then take the plans of the inner custome structure and build it to spec! Install it and .... BAMB a 36 ft custom cc tinny!


I am going to flip the bill no matter what to get plans drawn for this project just so I can see my idea come to life almost on paper before I actually do the build.

 

[TommyD11730]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

I think you should do it.

Oh and sell me your 191 Nymph as your not going to need it anymore

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Ok I got 2 boats delivered to a friends shop today! 2 26 ft starcraft islanders! Its a go! Im going to build it!

 

[191Seanymphstriper]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

I think you should do it.

Oh and sell me your 191 Nymph as your not going to need it anymore

And Tommy i sent you a P.M

 

[North Beach]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Wow, two 26' Islanders just like that. What year models? Can we get some pics. We don't see a lot of those 26 footers.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Woo! Go for it and post pictures!

 

[fshngho]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Good Luck with the project SNS. You are boldly going where no one has gone before. Remember to have pics of everything so idiots like myself can see what we don't understand. Pics please.

 

[Bondo]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Woo! Go for it and post pictures!

Ayuh,.... Cool,... What's the Expected Budget,..??

 

[sprintst]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

This one will be interesting. Post pics along the way if you have time.

 

[Triton II]

Re: ? Starcraft cc rebuild idea Convert (2) 26 starcraft islanders into (1) 36ft cc

Woohoo... go for it SNS!

TII