Starmada Testing Laboratories

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

slightly disconcerting to me, since i already made my rear splashwell-cover sliders and my side panels from birch! you can bet i'll be carefully ladling the epoxy into the end grain. it shoudl be OK; i've used the same stuff on 3 boats previously and it held up OK once epoxied and varnishedl

 

[halfmoa]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I believe multiple tests on the noodles is a good idea. My shipment of noodles should be in tomorrow. If I can find time I'll try and test the flotation.

I'd like to note when testing flotation I'd recommend an even spread rather than just ting off a rope to a mushroom anchor. If the weight is distributed like it would be in between the hull and the deck it may fair better. I wish I had an old dive belt.

I've got three pool noodles that have been used in freshwater exclusively for less than two years. They were stored in the boat for their entire lifetime. After they get wet you can wring the water out of them like a washcloth. They still float but they absolutely DO hold water. I still don't know why people insist on using them for flotation! If you want something that's never going to leak, use old soda/PET bottles with the cap on them! Heck of a lot cheaper than pool noodles...which are more expensive than closed cell insulation around here.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I've got three pool noodles that have been used in freshwater exclusively for less than two years. They were stored in the boat for their entire lifetime. After they get wet you can wring the water out of them like a washcloth. They still float but they absolutely DO hold water. I still don't know why people insist on using them for flotation! If you want something that's never going to leak, use old soda/PET bottles with the cap on them! Heck of a lot cheaper than pool noodles...which are more expensive than closed cell insulation around here.

That would be great if really cold weather didn't force the air out of them.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

OK! it's now been better part of 2 weeks so i decided to pull out the plywood samples and have a look. some surprising results.

here you see the untreated samples of the various plywoods. marine ply as expected did fine, but at $75/sheet for 1/2 and abt 93/sheet for 3/4, it should. Arauco and oak both likewise did great.....no delamination at all that i can see. the birch, on the other hand, seems to have flunked miserably....massive delamination on 2 of my 4 sample pieces. not sure why i'm seeing such different results from the first time i tried the birch...maybe it's from different suppliers? (Lowes has only 2x4 sheets in 1/2", but i can get full 4x8 sheets at Home Despot)??

closeups of the Arauco and oak, and of the sad birch

on to the treated wood. this is a little less reliable since the samples have different levels of coating and most are not coated on all sides (and i don't recallt the details). basically all samples did fine but i thought i saw some minor delamination on the birch, but it wasn;'t enough to get a fingernail under.

so there you have it. oak and Arauco both seem to be equivalent to marine ply, but don't use birch in below-floor applications and even above decks unless you epoxy it heavily. water is being changed and all samples will go back into the drink for another week or 2. more pix then.

B, not tryin to rain on your parade here but I think the bigger problems are the introduction of heat and the fact that the wood fibers themselves are prone to rot when wet/dry cycling occurs over and over( this will without a doubt happen faster on all the pine/oak/birch non fir types of wood). And based upon your limited testing I wouldn't start making comments about Marine ply and Oak/Arauco being equal.

Not to mention all this testing has already been done in controlled environments by professionals. The bucket test stuff you're doing here is way loosey goosey and suspect at best....haha

Besides, I know everyone is still tryin to reinvent the wheel on flotation and decking but I'll rest well every night knowing my flotation is extruded and my deck was 5 ply douglas fir with epoxy and glass reinforcment.

I'll agree that the Arauca my have less voids and work a tad better for the application of epoxy but come on folks it aint fir and therefore is less moisture sesistant. So we could say it's a less expensive alternative but that comes at a cost. It's called life cycle. if you pay 5 bucks for something and it lasts 5 years its not cheaper that paying 7 bucks for something and having it last for 10. And I for one do'nt ever want to redo my deck. I'd rather float around the lake.

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

NB, your points are all valid and you're right that i shouldn't make any excessively broad statements. and i know the test apparatus is pretty crude, but those professionals who have done the testing in a controlled environment haven't seen fit to share their superior results with us lowly ones. have you had any luck finding this on the web? and honestly, i doubt that this precise testing has been done. i'm unintentionally doing that wet/dry cycling thing as i forgot to drop the samples back into the water last night so they'll have dried out by tonight!

not sure there's anything shy of exotic hardwoods/composites/aluminum that will get away from the problem of the wood fibers themselves rotting. but this is why i thin my epoxy so much and pour it into the end grain, to try to saturate the wood fibers themselves.

the only thing i think we're learning here is how well, under equal conditions that approximate wet bilge, the various options comparatively resist delamination. just between you and me, i bet INterior ply would last for 25 yrs the way we all epoxy it up! i would be very open to any suggrestions for how to improve the test procedure.

i don't agree that the Arauco has less voids. than what? BCX? that stuff is void city!

 

[InMotion]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

While i too agree with NB... there just isn't anything out there to definitively guide us backyard boat hackers!!! Also, the problem with controlled testing is that it's controlled!!! Like fuel economy results --- very controlled.... but virtually impossible to duplicate! B2 what you are doing is great --- ya forgot to re-dunk... oops!!!! Just like the weather.... it's sunny and hot, then cools then gets hot again, then rains... etc. Totally variable. What we'll get to see is whether generally this wood vs that wood generally works better.... and that my friend is what will help others form their own opinion of what they will use to rebuild their boats.

Thanks man for your efforts!!

J.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Hey NB, on soap juggs, nobody goes boating in sub zero weather, so mute point. Well, almost nobody
http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg451/jasoutside/Starcraft Jet Star/P1070998.jpg

On Arauco vs. MG. Both will be sealed with epoxy so I'd think the quality of that job would dictate how long the deck lasts.

Also, I know you were just trying to make the point there on your numbers but...

Arauco all sealed up properly should last a hundred years on a boat that is properly cared for. So should MG. We'll both be worm food by then, so again mute point.

Now $, this is where it matters. 3/4" Arauco is about $40, 3/4" MG is about $80 (the cheapest stuff you can find too). If you use 5 sheets on a rebuild that's $200 I saved, not $2. I just saved enough to pay for a whole bunch of other materials to finish my project. Or maybe even enough to pick up the "next" project.

Moreover, it's a mentality thing too. Save where you can, spend where you have to. Durabak is roughly $250 while a bag of sand to be tossed into the last coat of epoxy is a little more than a buck. Make small moves like that throughout a whole project and a $7000 boat build can be cut in half or better. And these kinds of maneuvers puts guys like me in the boat ownership game. At $7K, I'm out.

Now, if I had money to burn, MG and DuraBak alllllll day long

Cheers

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

B,
A quick search using google on plywood brings up all kinds of stuff.

And all I'm saying is the Douglas Fir is a better product from a hot, wet/dry cycling standpoint.

The thing I don't understand is going on a brand new guy's thread who comes here looking for help and seeing comments like "most of us here just use arauco or exterior grade plywood and it works just fine." I didn't use those products. E used exterior and had a bad experience with it drinking large amounts of resin. There are several others on iboats who feel the same.

If you do some research, some of the sites that talk about plywood exclude even douglas fir from being labeled marine grade since it is considered a soft wood. They say the plies must be made of okuume or meranti. Here's a quote

Marine plywood is manufactured from durable face and core veneers, with few defects so it performs longer in humid and wet conditions and resists delaminating and fungal attack. Its construction is such that it can be used in environments where it is exposed to moisture for long periods. Each wood veneer will be from durable tropical hardwoods, have negligible core gap, limiting the chance of trapping water in the plywood and hence providing a solid and stable glue bond. It uses an exterior Water and Boil Proof (WBP) glue similar to most exterior plywoods.

Marine plywood can be graded as being compliant with BS 1088, which is a British Standard for marine plywood. There are few international standards for grading marine plywood and most of the standards are voluntary. Some marine plywood has a Lloyd's of London stamp that certifies it to be BS 1088 compliant. Some plywood is also labeled based on the wood used to manufacture it. Examples of this are Okoume or Meranti

Marine plywood is frequently used in the construction of docks and boats. It is much more expensive than standard plywood: the cost for a typical 4-foot by 8-foot 1/2-inch thick board is roughly $75 to $100 US or around $2.5 per square foot, which is about three times as expensive as standard plywood.

So you see the Douglas Fir Marine grade I used is really at the bottom of the pile as marine grades go but some of the stuff folks are using on their decks is not going to hold up very long and I feel like we should be letting folks know the risks associated with saving a few dollars.

I used 5 sheets of plywood on my deck at an upcharge of 250 bucks to use the Douglas Fir marine vs exterior and probably saved 50 bucks or so on resin so I feel that the additional cost was well worth it. And the upcharge cost to do a 16 footer would be what? less than 100 bucks?

Please don't think I'm flaming you here. I think a little bit of healthy argument is good. That's why some of us drive Fords and for some unknown reason, others drive Chevys I just think we should be checking or opinions a little more when we're offering up our expertise....

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Hey NB, on soap juggs, nobody goes boating in sub zero weather, so mute point. Well, almost nobody
http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg451/jasoutside/Starcraft Jet Star/P1070998.jpg

On Arauco vs. MG. Both will be sealed with epoxy so I'd think the quality of that job would dictate how long the deck lasts.

Also, I know you were just trying to make the point there on your numbers but...

Arauco all sealed up properly should last a hundred years on a boat that is properly cared for. So should MG. We'll both be worm food by then, so again mute point.

Now $, this is where it matters. 3/4" Arauco is about $40, 3/4" MG is about $80 (the cheapest stuff you can find too). If you use 5 sheets on a rebuild that's $200 I saved, not $2. I just saved enough to pay for a whole bunch of other materials to finish my project. Or maybe even enough to pick up the "next" project.

Moreover, it's a mentality thing too. Save where you can, spend where you have to. Durabak is roughly $250 while a bag of sand to be tossed into the last coat of epoxy is a little more than a buck. Make small moves like that throughout a whole project and a $7000 boat build can be cut in half or better. And these kinds of maneuvers puts guys like me in the boat ownership game. At $7K, I'm out.

Now, if I had money to burn, MG and DuraBak alllllll day long

Cheers

JAS, the point being that once the air leaves the bottles, it doesn't magically come back so you may as well just not install them.

And for the sake of argument, read my response to B above. I'm not saying dont use the cheap stuff, just don't throw it out there as THE thing to use. I think we at least owe that to the newcomers showing up looking for help.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Disagree, try it man, this is the testing thread right? It's all about air density. Throw a soap jugg in the freezer tonight, it'll kinda look deflated in the a.m. Then go outside, give it a few minutes and throw it in the pool. It'll float, never saturate, last forever and drain better than anything else out there. Now, do I recommend it? Nope, it's hard to fit unless you have very large areas to fill.

Yah, I think the thread you are referring to the fella was looking for an alternative to MG. Arauco and Exterior grade are alternatives.

See, Marine Grade isn't necessarily THE thing to use either. It's the standard for sure. But, when a backyard boat builder who is working on a shoe string budget, and looking for help, I think we owe it to them to let them know there are alternatives.

Knowhattamean

 

[64osby]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

So the next step is to form a grid or graph depicting durability vs. cost. It would have have to have multiple lines for each type of wood to depict the finish that was placed on it. fg/resin, epoxy, spar, paint, none.

So when someone asks is MG with Spar better than Arauco with epoxy they could make their own value judgement.

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

NB-

no problem, didn't take it as flaming, i do have bad habit of making excessively broad stmts like i know what i'm talking about. and you're right that noobs should be given all options and then make their own decisions. maybe we should collectively put together a "resto materials guide" to list the various options for decking/flotation/transom/paint and the pros and cons of each, then get EZ to make it a sticky, since these same discussions and misconceptions come up every time someone new dives in here. that's what prompted me to start my bozo test procedure anyway.

probably saved 50 bucks or so on resin so I feel that the additional cost was well worth it.
wait a minute. you used no epoxy? i respectfully think epoxied non-marine will last as long as bare marine ply. we do have a baseline for how long untreated, non-marine exterior grade will last since that's what the factory used many years (i have a brochure from 65ish where they brag about that). if boat is kept covered, it lasts what, about 30-35 years? the reality is that, as Jas alluded, most any option we do is going to outlast our lifetimes unless we do a real hack job.

yer 100% right on the plastic jugs. not sure why anyone would trust their life and their family's to this bad idea. now maybe, if the lid were sealed on with 5200.....????

Jas-- Durabak--$250. not falling overboard when you're solo and 10+ miles from anyone--PRICELESS. i tried the sand in the epoxy on floorboards i made for one of my inflatables and it doesn't offer near the traction when wet that the DB will, IMHO. and less chance of "deck rash" when (not if) i fall on it. but your points are well taken. from a bottom feeder standpoint, i'd like to see some testing comparing gluvit to coat-it, plain epoxy resin, and that gutter seal goop. heck, i maybe should buy that 14' tinnie just as a test bed for the Ultimate Bottom Feeder resto

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I think it's unfair to say that an exterior deck "isn't gonna last that long".

 

[lakelover]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

just between you and me, i bet INterior ply would last for 25 yrs the way we all epoxy it up!

I hope you're right on that one, my dashboard lamination is interior oak plywood, with epoxy and 7 coats of spar varnish on it.

 

[starcrafter65]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I think NB needs a new project to work on!!

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

OK so everyone is sold on exterior grade plywood. Great! And I don't think we need an options police or anything. I just don't understand why we're tellin folks to use exterior when we have no idea how it will last. I've gone thru the 62, 64, 65, and 66 brochure and cant find anything where they talk about the plywood other than them saying the pywood decks in the glass boats are marine grade.

And I did use epoxy.


Anyhow, hope I haven't offended anyone here. I won't argue the point any further.

 

[lakelover]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

i'd like to see some testing comparing gluvit to coat-it, plain epoxy resin

I'd like to see that too, as I am way less than satisfied with the effectiveness of my Gluvit application, where I followed the directions closely. I still got lotsa leaks. But I have a plan for that involving 5200, once it's back out of the water.

 

[lakelover]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

OK so everyone is sold on exterior grade plywood. Great! And I don't think we need an options police or anything. I just don't understand why we're tellin folks to use exterior when we have no idea how it will last. I've gone thru the 62, 64, 65, and 66 brochure and cant find anything where they talk about the plywood other than them saying the pywood decks in the glass boats are marine grade.

Anyhow, hope I haven't offended anyone here. I won't argue the point any further.

I think the exterior ply is recommended so much because it's a compromise at a reasonable price, and it has exterior glue in it. That was my understanding anyway.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

LL did you water test before the gluvit?

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Anyhow, hope I haven't offended anyone here. I won't argue the point any further.
dood! no offense taken by anyone. we're just trying to get data here. i'm not even sure what was the "point" that was being argued.