Start button

[Arkman]

A while ago...a long while ago I was on the lookout for a push button start for my boat. I've got everything figured out and done for the system, I just need a start button.

I could use something like this I think. http://www.amazon.com/Sierra-Switch-Push-Button/dp/B000LN2LLW But I'd like something a little cooler.

I know from my past post I need a switch that "the ignition switch OPENs the kill circuit in the ignition system" I have the choke and a kill switch already ready figured out.

Basically I'm looking for a cool looking push button that will start the boat motor.

This is what I was thinking, but I'm just not sure if it is the proper kind of switch.

This is the old thread I'm referring too. Silvertip gave me some good advice, but I'm still a little confused.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

1) You need a starter solenoid as a push button cannot handle the starter current.
2) The start push button needs to be able to handle the current draw of the solenoid. I don't think those chinese switches with the nice lighted ring around them have high enough current capacity.
3) I take it you are wanting someone to draw a diagram for you. While you may consider this cool, I find it very unnecessary and far more troublesome and harder to troubleshoot should a problem arise. I really question the wisdom of your plan but it is your boat so have it.
4) You already have a diagram and rather nice one at that. So what is it you don't understand?

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

1. I have a starter solenoid. I realize the the switch can't handle the full draw.

2. I guess this is part of my question. How much current draw is there in this situation?

3. I already figured out the diagram. It is completely unnecessary and more troublesome. Isn't that the point of having a boat? How many people really truly find it necessary to have a boat? I appreciate all your help on this forum. You certainly do seem to help a lot of people, but with all due respect, it is my boat. If you think its a stupid idea, don't help me. Please don't insult me. Sure my "wisdom" may be questionable...like your imagination. I'm not concerned about the troubleshooting since its the only thing wired in my entire boat. Sure it might cause some trouble but it is worth a shot to me.

4. You once told me a switch I was looking at didn't operate in the right manner. Since I needed a switch that "the ignition switch OPENs the kill circuit in the ignition system" I was trying to figure out if this or any other switch like it would work for a magneto ignition. You might think I'm a dumb person, but a guy can't know everything. I'm a little lost on this stuff, but I'm learning... that's what these forums are for.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

1. I have a starter solenoid. I realize the the switch can't handle the full draw.

2. I guess this is part of my question. How much current draw is there in this situation?

3. I already figured out the diagram. It is completely unnecessary and more troublesome. Isn't that the point of having a boat? How many people really truly find it necessary to have a boat? I appreciate all your help on this forum. You certainly do seem to help a lot of people, but with all due respect, it is my boat. If you think its a stupid idea, don't help me. Please don't insult me. Sure my "wisdom" may be questionable...like your imagination. I'm not concerned about the troubleshooting since its the only thing wired in my entire boat. Sure it might cause some trouble but it is worth a shot to me.

4. You once told me a switch I was looking at didn't operate in the right manner. Since I needed a switch that "the ignition switch OPENs the kill circuit in the ignition system" I was trying to figure out if this or any other switch like it would work for a magneto ignition. You might think I'm a dumb person, but a guy can't know everything. I'm a little lost on this stuff, but I'm learning... that's what these forums are for.

And I am trying to help you. Have you noticed there has not been a large number of folks jumping in with help? I wonder why? I did not consider this a "dumb" idea -- (unnecessary but not dumb). I did not consider you "dumb". You are obviously upset because I'm suggesting this is not the best idea. That's my feeling. This is a forum, you asked for help and help also comes in the form of suggestions -- like them or not. I feel the same way about folks going way overboard on killer audio systems on their boats. To the owner that's cool. To me they should be paying as much attention to the boat itself to ensure they have a safe outing. However they usually end up creating a wiring nightmare. Some do it right, some do it wrong, and some try to do it and fail miserably. To each his own.

Since you want "cool", you can use the lighted push buttons but to use them you need to add a relay to the system to handle the current. The switch by the way is also not moisture resistant. That relay should have contacts rated for about 5 amps. It needs to be sealed. I have no idea what solenoid you have so I can only guess at the current draw. The push button then energizes the relay, the relay contacts switch +12 volts to the solenoid which then switches very high current to the starter motor. So now that adds another layer of complication to the system but you do end up with the "cool" factor. Look at it from my perspective. I'm trying to help you avoid issues. Learning is accomplished in many ways but having someone do the design (in this case), tell what to use, where to get it, is not "learning". The next electrical project would result in the same process. It is the "why" that is important and the why is generally mssing from these posts because electrical and electronic theory is not learned in a couple of paragraphs. I suggest you head to your local library (or on-line) and do some "Basic Low Voltage" reading. Lastly, since this is a tiller motor and the back of the boat is normally damp from spray, where and how do you plan to mount all this stuff to keep it dry?

 

[MH Hawker]

Re: Start button

+ 1 silvertip, and in this case cool is going to be expensive. While I agree its a bad idea and will cause a mess the price of the switches and componets to do it correctly will end up costing a good bit of money as a guess 500.00 plus. What your talking about is having a custom control panel made to hook into the existing motor controls system or butchering the existing controller.

 

[BoatDrinksQ5]

Re: Start button

FYI - I saw what appeared to be that same switch... try computer building site xoxide.com 'vandal switch' it is 50ma rated at 24vdc. Used them a lot of fans/LED stuff/computer B.S.

Parts and relays should all be well under 100$ Get good affordable relays from www.kele.com (i use them for my line of work). All could be mounted inside a NEMA 4 (water resistant) enclosure (also on that site) that would be cheap also (for a screw cover style). If conditions are non-favorable for the switch (water) just make sure you have a spare. Connections could all be quick spade with di-electric grease coating to make for a quick swap in emergency.

 

[Boss Hawg]

Re: Start button

Well, another vote to listen to Slivertip ---I do---- I have a setup basicly the same as your discribing on my pontoon ( turn key on - pushbutton for choke - 2nd pushbutton to start ( factory solenoid ) -- Not really "cool" but I just went to a auto parts & bought a couple of the rubber covered buttons that are designed for outdoor use & to be used for a 12V starter . Not even sure if i'm comparing my apple to your apple or not but good luck on your project-
Something like this one-
http://www.alvielou2001.com/zxc428.jpg

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

I reacted to the fact that you question the wisdom of the plan. I am aware of the fact that I am making it much more difficult that it needs to be. You are right this is 100% unnecessary but I have a vision in my head I want to see what it will take to make it work. There is a reason I've been sitting on this project for over a year. I haven't had the time to learn what I'm doing. All though you think someone else is designing it for me I don't feel that is the case. You or someone else gives me advice and I research until I understand why I was told what I was told. That is how I figured out the wiring diagram for this project. I got close, someone corrected a couple mistakes and now I understand what is happening. The one thing I was not understanding when I started this topic is the difference in the switches that I posted in the original post (that I you told me wouldn't work because the battery vs magneto ignition). I'm starting to understand that. The other question I had is the amp rating of the switch. Again, I'm starting to understand that as it was explained to me by someone else.

I have found two other switches and this one that are labeled IP67 which if I understand correctly means it is (6)Totally protected against dust and (7) protected against immersion between 15cm and 1m. Now I don't plan on using this underwater, but it seems to me that its protected for use in a situation like mine.

I'm not sure that I agree with the $500 mark. Aside from the push button start I have about $20 in toggle switches. Waterproof and all. (Now i realize "waterproof is a misnomer...water resistant maybe.)

There is no existing controller. I have a very simple motor with very limited controls. I literally don't have to hack anything to bits. But I understand your concern. If this were a normal boat with more wiring than this I'd be leery of doing this project. This is the only wiring in the entire boat except my trolling motor and depth finder (those are completely separate)

I actually have a waterproof box that I am modifying to make work so the backside of these switches is protected all the time, then I will have the ability to cover the front and make it pretty much 100% waterproof.

I have also found one switch that will work for up to 5 amps. I'm still not certain if that is enough, but I'm going to see if I can test the current switch to see what it takes. If 5 isn't enough, then I will look into relays.

That is the kind of setup I got the idea from. Except instead of the rubber push buttons using some more "designer" switches. It is, at least I think based on how you described it, apples to apples.

I understand your concerns and I appreciate you all voicing your opinions and trying to help me avoid problems. I really do appreciate it. But haven't you all ever done anything simply because you thought it would be fun even though its completely unpractical? That's where I'm coming from. I have a crappy little fishing boat with a 1969 20hp mercury, I just want to add one little fancy pants thing to the boat for giggles. If I get it all designed out and it is overly expensive or more complicated that I am thinking it will be I may change my mind and go with a switch, but I'm not going to give up on it in the design phase.

Thanks again for your input. I really do appreciate it.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

Have you thought about a neutral lockout and kill switch function? Neutral lockout being a device that prevents you from starting the engine in gear. Without electric start most engines have a mechanical system that prevents starting in gear. Since you are bypassing all of that, you need neutral start protection to prevent pitching someone (or yourself) overboard.

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

The kill switch function is taken car of in the run switch. Basically a toggle with that little collar that sits behind the switch is connected to a lanyard. Fall out of the boat and it kills via that collar coming out and disabling the switch.

The neutral lockout is something I hadn't considered. I can't be certain with out looking at it later, but I believe the motor takes car of that mechanically like you said. The tiller handle must be set to the "start" position in order for the engine to start. I do, however, believe that the engine will start with the shift lever engaged to either forward, reverse, or neutral. It just wont start unless its in that "start" position. Which, it seems to me that when you put the handle into the "start" position the engine is basically throttled all the way down so even if its in gear you won't go flying out, you barely move if at all.

I can't tell you that for sure but to the best of my knowledge that's how it works. I guess I've never tested it. I always come to a stop, shift to neutral, then turn of the motor. So when I start I'm in neutral and the start position. Plus I check that its there...all that being said, I'll investigate further about the neutral lockout. Like you said, I certainly don't want to toss myself out (although, in the past I have wanted to toss others out )

As far as I understand the use of this system won't do anything to interrupt that neutral lockout I described above, but maybe it will. I'll check into it more, probably tomorrow night when I work on the boat.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

If the engine can be started in gear, then you need to incorporate some sort of lockout. There is a big difference in how the engine is operated once you add electrixc start. Say the engine kills with the engine in gear. While you may say you will never do this, you will at one time or another hit the START button. You really need to investigate if the engine can be started with the throttle set higher than the START position.

 

[kwik_uk]

Re: Start button

What about something like this?

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/508976263-Free-Shipping-Racing-Ignition-Switch-Panel-Engine-Start-Button-Type-B--wholesalers.html

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

What about something like this?

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/508976263-Free-Shipping-Racing-Ignition-Switch-Panel-Engine-Start-Button-Type-B--wholesalers.html


View attachment 146694

Has only half of what you need to start, stop, and choke/prime a two stroke engine. Start button is fine. But you also need a STOP switch. You also need a momentary switch for the electric primer or choke solenoid.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Start button

you can pick up a programmable controller to handle the logic, however you will need the complete logic table.

it wont be cheep, however it can be done.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ic_105_(Micro_Brick_PLC)/PLC_Units/F1-130DD-D

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Enclosures/Non-Metal_(NEMA_4X_-a-_3R)

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

If the engine can be started in gear, then you need to incorporate some sort of lockout. There is a big difference in how the engine is operated once you add electrixc start. Say the engine kills with the engine in gear. While you may say you will never do this, you will at one time or another hit the START button. You really need to investigate if the engine can be started with the throttle set higher than the START position.

I might not get around to the investigation until this weekend. I agree. I say I wont but at some point its bound to happen.

I have thought about those boards but all of the ones I've found are designed for use in cars so I'm assuming the start button is not the appropriate kind. Like silvertip said in the original thread, designed for a battery ignition instead of a magneto. This has been one of my struggles. But from what I understand I need a basic momentary push button.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

It makes no difference if the engine is battery or magneto ignition as regards the START button. It is the IGNITION (ON-OFF) switch that is important. Again -- battery ignition requires a CLOSED circuit to engergize the ignitiion. A magneto system requires an OPEN circuit for the engine to run. If you plan to use a toggle switch as a separate On-Off switch it will work but it will work backwards. OFF (open) would be the RUN position. ON (closed) would be the STOP position. To make this a little clearer, a battery ignition (like your car) is like turning on the light in your house. You CLOSE the switch contacts to make the light turn on. With a magneto system it works backwards. You are not energizing a magneto system ignition system but rather allowing it to operate. YOu do that by removing a ground connection that kills the engine to stop it. That ground connection is removed by moving the switch to the OFF (open) position. This is why the RUN position in I/O and outboard ignition switches are different. The other features remain the same except that an I/O switch will not have a push to choke feature since the choke is automatic.

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

OK, that is a concept I was struggling to understand before. I just read through that about ten times and I think I get it now.

In the last thread I didn't understand why that start button wouldn't work...but it was actually a combination of things that I didn't understand.

I'm still a little foggy on the details but if I use a separate on/off switch can I use a DPDT (Double Throw Double Pole) switch. If I understand the wiring diagram correctly I could attach (in this case) the white and the salmon wires together on one side of the switch or the "top on position" then the gray wire to the "bottom on position" when I flip it all the way down to the bottom it kills the motor. Like I said, i could be wrong. but I think I have it worked out.

Here is the diagram of what I have. It is my working model. I'm not certain yet that its right, but I think its close.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the white wire in the drawing is the dashed black like...white on white is hard to show



View attachment 21.pdf

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

OK, I just noticed something as I looked at this again. in the original diagram there is a switch connected to the white and salmon wires that is labeled "ignition starting button". Which would lead me to believe that when you connect the white and salmon it starts...This is actually the kill switch in my system. Which makes more sense with what silvertip was saying, but when I was looking at the diagram I didn't put it together that it seems to be mislabeled. Could you explain to me why when you connect the white and salmon it kills it?

So now I feel like that diagram isn't quite right so I'll have to go back and rethink it.

At this point I'm not set on doing this system, but I am set on truly understanding the problem and solution. I don't like to leave things unsolved. It will bother me for the rest of my life...seriously. I'm certain there is a solution to this problem. Is it practical or elegant...no. But its there. And its eating away at me that I don't understand it. Does that make sense to anyone?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Start button

No -- the diagram is not right. Until you show a starter solenoid, a starter motor, a relay coil, relay contacts, (in other words, a complete diagram) I can't comment. I have no idea what the letters are you show. Here is the sequence of events that needs to happen. YOU need to draw the diagram that makes it happen. You want to learn to so here is your chance.

ENGINE START:
1) The IGNITION switch needs to be a set of OPEN contacts for the magneto. This switch is in the kill circuit for a magneto engine. It shorts the ignition to ground. Note that I said "ignition" not the ignition coil.
2) If you use the fancy push button, one terminal of that swtich has +12 volts on it. The other goes to the start relay coil. The other side of the coil goes to ground.
3) When you push the START button, the relay coil is energized which closes the relay contacts. One side of those Normally open contacts has +12 volts on it. The other contact goes to the starter solenoid.
4) The solenoid must be grounded.
5) The POS battery cable goes to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. The other large terminal goes to the starter motor.
6) You should now be able to press the button and the starter will spin.
7) If the engine has a manual choke you need nothing for it. If it has an electric choke you need a switch to actuate the solenoid or primer. Again, +12 volts on one side of the swtich, the other side to the choke solenoid or primer.
8) To kill the engine you simply short the ignition (kill wire) to ground via the ignition switch. You do NOT need a DPDT switch for this. This is a SPST switch. OPEN = RUN, CLOSED = STOP. Don't know what you are attempting to do with a DPDT switch.

 

[Arkman]

Re: Start button

Sorry for the confusion. The letters represent the letters on the original diagram, its the second attachment on the post above yours. I attached it as a PDF. I guess I didn't point that out. It shows the rest of the stuff, the starter solenoid...etc. I wasn't trying to get someone else to draw the diagram for me...I was just using the one already made in an effort to avoid mistakes.

I wont have time today to study the points you made. But I'll try to look tonight or tomorrow.

I did take note to the fact that you said "ignition" and not ignition coil. I'm not sure what that means right now but I'll do some research and try and figure out what point you are making...of the top of my head I am thinking you are trying to point out a difference between ignition and the coil on the magneto system..I have no idea if that is right. Like I said, I'll try and look into it.

I will say that I think my reasoning for a DPDT switch was to give it a run position and a kill position. Routing the 12v+ through the switch on one side makes it so I'd have to flip it to run and then it would be harder to accidentally hit the start button. Now I'm starting to understand more and I don't think that is right. I'll try to give a better description of what I think is happening after I redo the wiring diagram.

I think most of the points above are actually handled on the engine side of the wire harness which is shown in the PDF attached. When I get time I'll add that info into my diagram so its all in one place.

Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT: I've added the diagram with the stuff on the other side of the harness.