Still having trouble with Quickstart........... Please help.

[sutor623]

Hey guys, Im beginning to think this motor is possessed!!!!!

Anyways, E130txoar 1995 V4 Looper 130hp

Timing bounces back and forth while the engine is in Quickstart. (Motor backfires and is hard to start. Runs GREAT once quickstart has disengaged) Disconnect yellow/red wire and ground out white/black wire and quickstart STILL tries to engage (which is not supposed to happen). Once the white/black wire is grounded out from the pack, it goes out of quickstart after the first 5 seconds and runs fine. The ONLY way the engine will not enter quickstart is if I disconnect the 4 pin amphenol connector from the timer base to the powerpack. I swapped out the timer base with a known good timer base and still have the same issue.

When cranking the motor over to do the Joe Reeves WOT timing procedure, the motor advances to its quickstart timing, whether yellow/red wire is connected or not. Again, if I disconnect the 4 pin connector from the timer base, timing goes back to normal.

Sent powerpack to CDI for warranty, they checked it and said it was NOT faulty. I argued that I really felt it was, and they sent me a brand new powerpack.
I STILL HAVE THE SAME ISSUE!!!!!

I do not have voltage coming in from the yellow/red wire unless the key is being turned. There is no voltage coming in from the kill circuit.

My only guess at this point is that maybe I have a short and voltage being fed in from the ground??

This motor also has the original black ignition coil wires instead of the new grey ones. Could this be a culprit?

Thanks guys, I am really pulling my hair out here................

 

[tommarvin]

I don't have a clue, I would put my glasses on get a flash light, take a chill pill, start at a spot on the motor and slowly check all wiring with a tug and a pull,are the springs in place, look for anything out of the ordinary.

My approach is everything is fine on the inside of the motor, I need to find what's wrong on the outside of the motor that I can see with my eyes.

It's a electrical problem, test all the components you can or get a friend to help you, youtube please tell us when you find it.

 

[flyingscott]

Are you replacing the powerpak because of a problem with the old one need some back story. Does that have the OIS ignition

 

[sutor623]

This all started with an issue of hard starting, and one side of the motor fouling out plugs (starboard side.) Put in a new primer solenoid. I chased the issue like a madman and couldnt figure it out. Compression was good, but for some reason the motor failed the cylinder drop test at idle for cylinder #1.

I replaced all the ignition components (new CDI stator and powerpack, used factory timer base.) Still had the same issue.

When it got cold, the motor would NOT start on in the water, only on muffs, until it warmed up. I pulled the cylinder head on starboard side and had scoring and pieces of aluminum buried into the piston head.

I bought a reman powerhead and put it on. (Rebuilt entire fuel system with all new hoses, clamps, etc. Took great care to torque all of my intake manifold components on according to factory spec. I am very confident in all of that) Went to start it in the bucket, wouldn't start. Put it on muffs, what do you know, started up. BUT, timing was bouncing up and down like crazy UNTIL quickstart disengaged.

Went through CDI troubleshooting for quickstart with a fine toothed comb. Seemed as if all pointed to a bad powerpack (which was brand new.) I sent it in to be tested, they said it was fine, I asked for a new one, and they sent me one. And voila, we have the same issue.

I swapped the timer base back to the original one and have the same issue.

Once the quickstart disengages (whether motor warms up or I ground out the white/black temp wire to the block) the motor runs beautifully!! And now it actually passes the drop test for cylinder 1.

Something is making the timing bounce from the "advanced" coil to the "normal" coil in the timer base or powerpack. It is very strange. And the weirdest thing is if I disconnect the yellow/red wire from the powerpack to harness, it STILL tries to engage quickstart. Just does not make any damn sense......

 

[flyingscott]

Did you try the old powerpak again

 

[tommarvin]

Don't fight the markets, can you disengage the quickstart, or will it affect the running of the motor, or hurt it ?.

 

[sutor623]

Yes I tried the old pack. It has a much more erratic timing issue. And that doesn't resolve when it drops out of QuickStart.

Can't disengage QuickStart as it cuts in the first 5 seconds so if it is acting up you will have poor starting.

 

[clanton]

Check the 2 orange wires coming from the stator for voltage at engine cranking rpms, should be between 20/30 AC volts. Then check the temp sensor with the 2 wires. Specs are in manual.

 

[sutor623]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Thanks Clanton, m[/FONT]y stator is brand new CDI. I checked the orange and orange/black wires and they are produceing 50v AC as required by spec.


I checked the blocking diode in the wiring harness and it checked out fine. Double checked my work!!

I indexed the flywheel. ALL cylinders are having their timing skip around about 10 degrees while quickstart is activated, steadily back and forth. Each cylinder is only firing when it is supposed to be (meaning I only see the number 1 with the timing light while connected to cyl 1, etc.)

Checked keyswitch, and it is in good working order.

Checked starter solenoid and it is functioning properly.

I checked for shorts to ground in the wiring harness and could not find any.

Quickstart "tries" to engage whether or not the Yellow/red trigger wire is connected.

I disconnected the 4pin amphenol harness (advanced timing timer base) and voila, quickstart does not try to engage. Motor starts right up and runs great. No more timing bouncing around. I have 2 timer bases and they BOTH do the same exact thing. Here is an illustration to show what I am referring to. Wire harness on the right is the one that I have disconnected. (Motor will not start if other harness is disconnected (as expected.)



Everything that I have done points to a bad powerpack. But this issue has surfaced with 2 packs, and the last one was checked by CDI and had no issues according to them.

 

[clanton]

You have a Manual? I cannot get to my manual until Monday. Need to know the base/idle timing. The idle timing should be set doing a link/sync, my guess is 0 - 4 degrees ATDC. Engine idle must be correct. when this is done, then check full advance timing. Can`t remember all of the details, without my manual.

 

[sutor623]

You have a Manual? I cannot get to my manual until Monday. Need to know the base/idle timing. The idle timing should be set doing a link/sync, my guess is 0 - 4 degrees ATDC. Engine idle must be correct. when this is done, then check full advance timing. Can`t remember all of the details, without my manual.

Yea I have a manual. I think the base timing is 2-6 degrees ATDC. Basically you want to get the RPM's to 650-750 in gear, and in my case that is 5 degrees ATDC, and that is what it is set at. Link and sync is perfect.

Trust me, all the basics are down pat. There is an electrical gremlin in here somewhere.

I am considering running this motor with the timing advance plug disconnected. I doubt it will hurt the timer base because the voltage is so low. And the powerpack will be fine because it just wont be sensing a signal from the quickstart sensor coils. I really dont care about quickstart anyways. Just advance the idle when starting just like every other two stroke ever made..................

I do wish I could find a schematic of the powerpack though.................

 

[oldboat1]

Saw in passing that yellow/red should be energized only during cranking, not while running (context was quick start system run-on). Thinking a stuck, sticking or corroded neutral safety switch might be an unlikely suspect (missing or overridden, maybe).

[ed. Nah, can't see that, and key switch/solenoid have been checked. Think the reference was on Bill Kelly's site -- might want to just check the yellow/red to see if there's voltage while running.]

 

[sutor623]

Saw in passing that yellow/red should be energized only during cranking, not while running (context was quick start system run-on). Thinking a stuck, sticking or corroded neutral safety switch might be an unlikely suspect (missing or overridden, maybe).

[ed. Nah, can't see that, and key switch/solenoid have been checked. Think the reference was on Bill Kelly's site -- might want to just check the yellow/red to see if there's voltage while running.]

Thanks for the input buddy. I have checked that yel/red wire countless times and can't pickupany voltage coong in from it. Plus, the oddest thing is even if I disconnect it entirely it still engages quickstart sporadically....... Driving me nuts...... Has to be an issue with the timer base or powerpack. But what are the odds of putting another timer base on here and getting the exact same results......

 

[oldboat1]

Yeah, guess you could add a switch to ground out the temp switch until the engine warms up -- "force quit" the QS like in your testing.

 

[Fed]

Could the quick start be working as it's designed to work but the problem lies with your motor not running well whenever the quick start is engaged?

 

[sutor623]

Yeah, guess you could add a switch to ground out the temp switch until the engine warms up -- "force quit" the QS like in your testing.

Well, the problem is that the first 5 seconds, the motor goes into QS regardless if that wire is grounded or not. The problem is that it causes hard starting because the only way to disengage it (in my case) is to keep the starboard connector off of the timer base disconnected.

 

[sutor623]

Could the quick start be working as it's designed to work but the problem lies with your motor not running well whenever the quick start is engaged?

No, I do not think this is the issue, because when I remove the "advanced timing" wire harness and start the motor she starts right up and runs perfectly. The motor idles great and when I apply throttle it is smooth. The timing is set perfectly and the motor does not hiccup once the QS is disengaged. There is a reason that QS is being "undecisive" and I just cant figure out why. I am starting to believe that I somehow got two bad powerpacks in a row.

I checked and re-checked the timer base and it is within spec. Both of the timer bases that I had installed are, as a matter of fact.

I'd just hate to throw parts at this thing. I am seriously considering just leaving the "advanced timing" harness disconnected because the motor starts and runs fine without it, and does not attempt to engage QS.

Would an older battery cause an issue like this? I was under the impression that an older battery would either create spark, or no spark.

 

[Fed]

Have you ever confirmed top dead centre at the pointer is really top dead centre at the piston?

 

[sutor623]

Have you ever confirmed top dead centre at the pointer is really top dead centre at the piston?

Yes I put a dial indicator on it after the new powerhead went on. My timing light flashes at 6 degrees ATDC when the motor is at idle after QS drops out.

When I first start the motor (when QS is engaged) the timing light flashes at 6 ATDC AND 2 degrees BTDC. (The 8-10 degree QS timing advance). I also used white marker on these two points to confirm this. Looks like it is skipping back and forth from each one. It does the exact SAME thing on all 4 cylinders.

 

[sutor623]

The more I look at this the more it points to a bad SCR switch in the powerpack that "tells" the pack when to go into QS. Almost like someone is flicking the light switch rapidly instead of just turning on the light.

Other possibility is that there is RFI interfering with the powerpack. I have the black copper spark plug wires. I heard the gray wires were better at masking RFI but are they only recommended for the Optical ignitions of the 2000's? Was there a service bulletin in these wires at any time in the past?