Stock Market

aspeck

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2003
Messages
19,101
Re: Stock Market

I agree totally with diversification all the way, especially if your over 40...by the way, are you the infamous Tim? :D

Well, he is the Tim from Canada. And Canadians like their beer. So if you use logical deduction ... ;):D
 

StevNimrod

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
343
Re: Stock Market

A little late to the party but here are my views, as generally unconventional as they may be:

One issue with the downgrade was that S&P spoke out of turn. If memory serves, they said a downgrade was likely unless the debt package was at least X dollars. When the package was less than X dollars, S&P had to make a difficult choice: (1) downgrade and watch the market tumble, or (2) lose credibility. We know which way that went.

I believe that diversification is just safe game theory - but essentially amounts to making a choice by not making choices. Diversification is a nice way of saying I don't know how this thing works, but I'm going to throw money at it anyway and see what sticks - a safe way of spreading out wins and losses, by being a jack of all trades but master of none.

The advice someone gives you should be weighed against their vested interest in the outcome. Stockbrokers in bad markets give the same advice as lawyers in bad cases - "wait it out, this is just a minor setback, we're in it for the long-run, etc." Their vested interest, frankly, is in you continuing to pay for the service. I've yet to hear a lawyer say (at least audibly) that a case was indefensible, or a stockbroker suggest selling unless it's at the "sell high" end where everyone stands to walk away with a chunk of change. I think a lot of it also depends on the value of the assets your broker handles - the top 5% of investors (by wealth) are seldom given the same advice the other 95%.

And when it comes to "long-run" investing, I know a lot of people who are "in it for the long haul" and watch the markets obsessively (as in every five minutes). If you're in it for the long-haul, what does it matter? I believe that there is no such thing in practice - that the "long-run" people chase is nothing more than what should be a series of wise short-run moves.

I'm with SummerFun and the cellar safe Full-O-Cash idea. I believe that in real terms your wealth is relative to everyone else's. Otherwise, the numbers are meaningless. For instance, Warren Buffet isn't wealthy because of how much money he has; he is wealthy because of how much money he has compared to everyone else. So when you keep cash positions while everyone else is losing their portfolio, you actually become wealthier in real terms. This historically reflects a logical fallacy in our finance fundamentals that most recently backfired around 2008 - companies had always been looked down on for having a lot of cash on their books. Investors would ask why they weren't investing that cash, missing growth opportunities, etc. Those companies are still around now, going strong, and management is highly regarded for their genius.

It really comes back to what your true goal of investing is - to make 10% a year, or to not lose your life savings? On a basic level those are conflicting goals, and therein lies the rub.
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Stock Market

A little late to the party but here are my views, as generally unconventional as they may be:

One issue with the downgrade was that S&P spoke out of turn. If memory serves, they said a downgrade was likely unless the debt package was at least X dollars. When the package was less than X dollars, S&P had to make a difficult choice: (1) downgrade and watch the market tumble, or (2) lose credibility. We know which way that went.

I believe that diversification is just safe game theory - but essentially amounts to making a choice by not making choices. Diversification is a nice way of saying I don't know how this thing works, but I'm going to throw money at it anyway and see what sticks - a safe way of spreading out wins and losses, by being a jack of all trades but master of none.

The advice someone gives you should be weighed against their vested interest in the outcome. Stockbrokers in bad markets give the same advice as lawyers in bad cases - "wait it out, this is just a minor setback, we're in it for the long-run, etc." Their vested interest, frankly, is in you continuing to pay for the service. I've yet to hear a lawyer say (at least audibly) that a case was indefensible, or a stockbroker suggest selling unless it's at the "sell high" end where everyone stands to walk away with a chunk of change. I think a lot of it also depends on the value of the assets your broker handles - the top 5% of investors (by wealth) are seldom given the same advice the other 95%.

And when it comes to "long-run" investing, I know a lot of people who are "in it for the long haul" and watch the markets obsessively (as in every five minutes). If you're in it for the long-haul, what does it matter? I believe that there is no such thing in practice - that the "long-run" people chase is nothing more than what should be a series of wise short-run moves.

I'm with SummerFun and the cellar safe Full-O-Cash idea. I believe that in real terms your wealth is relative to everyone else's. Otherwise, the numbers are meaningless. For instance, Warren Buffet isn't wealthy because of how much money he has; he is wealthy because of how much money he has compared to everyone else. So when you keep cash positions while everyone else is losing their portfolio, you actually become wealthier in real terms. This historically reflects a logical fallacy in our finance fundamentals that most recently backfired around 2008 - companies had always been looked down on for having a lot of cash on their books. Investors would ask why they weren't investing that cash, missing growth opportunities, etc. Those companies are still around now, going strong, and management is highly regarded for their genius.

It really comes back to what your true goal of investing is - to make 10% a year, or to not lose your life savings? On a basic level those are conflicting goals, and therein lies the rub.

I suspect that while dispensing your wisdom you failed to consider little details like dollar cost averaging, hedging, employer match, tax implications, and long term versus short term goals. Your argument is predicated on the assumption that all investment decisions are in reality short term and myopic, which is simply not the case. Ecomonies and GDPs grow and shrink. Some years (and months) my 401k is up, some years (and months) it's down, but I don't get my investment advice from a stock broker or attorney, and I don't constantly watch the stocks in my DIVERSIFIED holdings. I'll be forty next week, so it doesn't make sense for me to be in cash earning next to nothing (or nothing if it's in the cellar), while my parents are retired, so they're mostly in cash or cash equivalents. Sometimes cash is king, sometimes it's not, but if you really believe the best use of all your resources is to tie them up in an historically weak dollar more power to you.;)
 

robert graham

Admiral
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
6,908
Re: Stock Market

Fear, Greed, Rumors and Schizophrenia is what the market has always been about, but I'm still holding onto my Ford, GE, BB&T, Cash, a few others. Just thankful to have my good health, a few cans of beans in the pantry, no debt and a few assets. Life is pretty darn good!
 
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