Stranded in the Catalina channel!

mkino

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Jan 15, 2012
Messages
43
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I did check early in the process, there was no fuel in the filter. So I added gas to it, then replaced it. Didn't help until I poured gas directly into the carb. So I am now suspecting that my new fuel filter is not working. I did check that there is no blockage between the gas tank and the fuel filter, and no blockage from the fuel filter to the fuel pump.

Any easy way to test the fuel pump?
 

Don S

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62,321
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Look at this specific post and what I said and what Bondo added to. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=529365&p=3617981&viewfull=1#post3617981
You have to find out if you have a fuel tank pickup problem or a fuel pump problem. Since the pump is fairly new and it did run for 3 minutes at one point, you need to try a different fuel tank just to isolat systems and track down your problem.
 

mkino

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Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
43
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I don't have an external tank. I did pull the check valve at the gas tank, it seemed OK, but that thing has twice seized up and needed cleaning, once 11 years ago, once last year. That was the first thing I checked out on the ocean, and I actually bypassed it temporarily with no luck. But, then I think it was a spark issue that is now fixed.

Totally confused!
 

Bondo

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71,357
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Ayuh,.... Amen to That,...

If ya don't have an outboard tank, a length of 3/8" gas line, 'n any ole gas can can be used to do the same thing...

Just be careful, 'n not be spillin' the gas,...
That's the advantage of the outboard tank, easier to handle...
Any easy way to test the fuel pump?
Ayuh,... Feed gas to the "IN" barb on the fuel pump....
Hook a hose to the carb side....
Turn the motor over on the starter....

Is there Gas comin' outa the hose that went to the carb,..??
If so, the fuel pump works.....
 

Don S

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Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I doubt the valve was the problem, ever pull the pickup tube out of the tank and see if the screen on the end of the tube is plugged up?
From the sound of your posts, I don't see much troubleshooting, only looking at them and then replacing.
Borrow, buy or make a remote tank and do some testing. You are going to spend a lot less that replacing a fuel pump that isn't bad.
 

Ryanlewis2010

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
314
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Ayuh,... Feed gas to the "IN" barb on the fuel pump....
r....

Didnt i suggest that a lil while up
/ \
||

Just saying that most mechanical have to be primed b4 the form a vacuum
 

gus-gus

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
169
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

We all suggested it was fuel related, I thought water, so I was wrong.
 

Technorunner

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Oct 1, 2010
Messages
95
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Have you also checked the tank ventilation so its not clogged up. Just remove the hose from the tank and give it a blow with you mouth to see that its free from bugs and stuff!!
 

mkino

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
43
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Good ideas gentlemen, thanks! Yes Don I checked the fuel tank pickup out in the channel, no problem.

I will check the tank vent Technorunner, good idea!

I will feed gas directly to the input of the fuel pump Bond-O, great advice. Strange that I have replaced the fuel pump before and not had an issue...

Will try this stuff Saturday, I will keep you posted, thanks again!!!
 

John3

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
136
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Had a somewhat similar problem. Would Idle OK & go for about 1/2 mile & die. Wouldn't start, wait a few minuteds would restart, go 1/2 mile at speed & die.
Cleaned & changed everything, was driving me nuts. Finally found the problem after a 3 AM design review. The fuel line from the tank has a 90 degree brass fitting where it comes out of the tank. There was a piece of crud stuck in the sharp turn, it acted like a valve, with low flow it was OK. High flow it was a restriction, the fuel filter & carb would run dry & the motor died. I think waiting allowed the piece of junk to move a little, the elect fuel pump could then refill the line. When I finally found it I dislodged it with a toothpick. Guess I shooda saved it, it was valuable considering what it cost me.
 

mkino

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
43
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Progress... First thing poured some gas directly into the carb, ran for four minutes then died. I then pulled the fuel line at the carb, put a rag in the spray zone, and turned it over. No gas...

Then, rigged an external fuel source (milk jug), hooked directly to fuel pump. Ran it for 20 minutes, good.

Next, hooked fuel to input of fuel line, same result.

Tried it with the normal fuel source, died after two minutes.

Then I pulled the fuel tank pickup, found this IMAG0243.jpg. Seems when I checked this in the channel, I didn't slide it up the pipe far enough (no marking), so it was kinked. I took a dowel, measured the fuel tank depth (verified there is gas!), and re-set the hose up so the kink was straightened. Thought I was home free, but no, wouldn't run. Checked the gas tank vent, it is good. Still won't run.

Pulled the check valve, this has given me trouble in the past. Decided I wanted to remove the ball valve. Hit it with a punch, couldn't get it out, but the little wire circle came out,IMAG0244.jpg and it had much better flow (tested with my straw sucking technique before and after). Tried to fire it up, nothing!

So, I think at this point it is either the check valve, or the kink in the pickup filter caused the fuel pump to not pull hard enough? I want to get a new brass fitting that replaces the check valve.

Any more ideas gentlemen? I really appreciate the help!
 

LilRedNeckGirl

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
184
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

First, the check valve is a safety and function nessessity, Replace it but NEVER totaly remove it. It allows fuel to flow when the pump put suction on it, but will stop the flow in the event of a fuel line rupture. Without that check valve, a fuel line rupture could mean all your fuel ends up in the bildge of the boat, or getting pumped out into the water via a bildge pump.
I would back paddle on checking things. fuel tank vent, it should have no restrictions, check it twice. try running engine with fuel filler cap off. The fuel pick up tubes, pull them & check screens, check that they arnt clogged. Consider shortning them 1/4 inch. That keeps them up off the bottom and helps from picking up sedament and water. Use a hand pump, and draw a bit of fuel off the bottom / lowest point of the tank to check for water, dirt, sedament. Replace check valve. Peplace any old fuel lines with new. [ Remember, a working check valve will stop fuel if there is a hole in the line, and respectivly, if its before the pump, you could be sucking in air at that hole when the engine cranks, meaning no fuel is getting pulled up and out of the tank. if your fuel lines are rubber and a few years old, try replacing them. Check fuel pump, it should have a flow rate, @ fill a container up a certain amount in a set time, & have a certain pressure, get a pressure guage and test it. Check/replace water seperator filter. A clean looking water sep, filter can stop fuel if it has become saturated.
Now, assuming fuel is getting to pump, & pump has proper flow and pressure. time to head up to the carb. There is typicaly a small filter in the carb connection fitting where the fuel line connects to the carb, pull it out, clean of replace. Now, back track down the fuel line, does it rest on something that gets hot? metal lines on hot surfaces can cause vapor lock so be sure there is clearance around the fuel line.
Install a clear inline filter in your line, maybe even in two places. This gives you the visual, seeing the fuel tells you its at least getting that far. They are cheap, and save buckets of guessing. Also, a fuel pressure guage, at most auto parts stores take the guess work out of things.
Research your fuel pump. thats a good 30 minute investment, @ knowing if its 1 or 2 daphrams, if it has an internal filter or sedament bowl,
A note on gas pouring into the carb. The SAFE way is to use a squirt bottle. the design @ a windex bottle. Be sure its gasoline compatable. Pouring from any jar, glass, can, is risky and can result in a flash back fire.
If you start at the tank, and work forward to the carb, takeing each step twice, double checking everything instead of jumping around and guessing, chances are you can find the issue and fix it. Dont get mad when you find its something simple, like a air leak into the line before the pump but after the check valve. [That section of the fuel line has a vaccume/ suction on it and wont always show a fuel leak or hole. ] And finally, have you made sure all clamps are snug, and did you put a wrap of teflon tape on threaded fittings? remember, on the suction lines, a pin hole will defeat the pump suction, and you will be getting nothing but air, and since no fuel is being lifted from the tank, you wont see a fuel leak..
we had simular issues with our boat. years of setting caused bunches of small issues, from water in tank, mud daubber nest in the tank vent fitting on the hull, and deterioated lines. frustration ended when we cleaned and replaced the typical maintanace stuff, @ all filters and rubber lines, made sure fittings were sealed, and shortened the pick up tubes 1/4 inch getting them up off the bottom of the tank. the clear inline filters now serve as a window into the system should we have any issues, and they are great indicators by their color, of how the other filters are doing...
 

gus-gus

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
169
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I didn't read all of the post because I couldn't get past your description of the check-valve. The checkvalve has no other reason but stop fuel from running back to the tank. it is neither to stop fuel from filling your bilge or protect the waters you happen to be in. It keeps the fuel line filled with fuel when the engine (fuel pump) is shut off. Maybe I will revisit your post later, NAH.

First, the check valve is a safety and function nessessity, Replace it but NEVER totaly remove it. It allows fuel to flow when the pump put suction on it, but will stop the flow in the event of a fuel line rupture. Without that check valve, a fuel line rupture could mean all your fuel ends up in the bildge of the boat, or getting pumped out into the water via a bildge pump.
I would back paddle on checking things. fuel tank vent, it should have no restrictions, check it twice. try running engine with fuel filler cap off. The fuel pick up tubes, pull them & check screens, check that they arnt clogged. Consider shortning them 1/4 inch. That keeps them up off the bottom and helps from picking up sedament and water. Use a hand pump, and draw a bit of fuel off the bottom / lowest point of the tank to check for water, dirt, sedament. Replace check valve. Peplace any old fuel lines with new. [ Remember, a working check valve will stop fuel if there is a hole in the line, and respectivly, if its before the pump, you could be sucking in air at that hole when the engine cranks, meaning no fuel is getting pulled up and out of the tank. if your fuel lines are rubber and a few years old, try replacing them. Check fuel pump, it should have a flow rate, @ fill a container up a certain amount in a set time, & have a certain pressure, get a pressure guage and test it. Check/replace water seperator filter. A clean looking water sep, filter can stop fuel if it has become saturated.
Now, assuming fuel is getting to pump, & pump has proper flow and pressure. time to head up to the carb. There is typicaly a small filter in the carb connection fitting where the fuel line connects to the carb, pull it out, clean of replace. Now, back track down the fuel line, does it rest on something that gets hot? metal lines on hot surfaces can cause vapor lock so be sure there is clearance around the fuel line.
Install a clear inline filter in your line, maybe even in two places. This gives you the visual, seeing the fuel tells you its at least getting that far. They are cheap, and save buckets of guessing. Also, a fuel pressure guage, at most auto parts stores take the guess work out of things.
Research your fuel pump. thats a good 30 minute investment, @ knowing if its 1 or 2 daphrams, if it has an internal filter or sedament bowl,
A note on gas pouring into the carb. The SAFE way is to use a squirt bottle. the design @ a windex bottle. Be sure its gasoline compatable. Pouring from any jar, glass, can, is risky and can result in a flash back fire.
If you start at the tank, and work forward to the carb, takeing each step twice, double checking everything instead of jumping around and guessing, chances are you can find the issue and fix it. Dont get mad when you find its something simple, like a air leak into the line before the pump but after the check valve. [That section of the fuel line has a vaccume/ suction on it and wont always show a fuel leak or hole. ] And finally, have you made sure all clamps are snug, and did you put a wrap of teflon tape on threaded fittings? remember, on the suction lines, a pin hole will defeat the pump suction, and you will be getting nothing but air, and since no fuel is being lifted from the tank, you wont see a fuel leak..
we had simular issues with our boat. years of setting caused bunches of small issues, from water in tank, mud daubber nest in the tank vent fitting on the hull, and deterioated lines. frustration ended when we cleaned and replaced the typical maintanace stuff, @ all filters and rubber lines, made sure fittings were sealed, and shortened the pick up tubes 1/4 inch getting them up off the bottom of the tank. the clear inline filters now serve as a window into the system should we have any issues, and they are great indicators by their color, of how the other filters are doing...
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I didn't read all of the post because I couldn't get past your description of the check-valve. The checkvalve has no other reason but stop fuel from running back to the tank. it is neither to stop fuel from filling your bilge or protect the waters you happen to be in. It keeps the fuel line filled with fuel when the engine (fuel pump) is shut off. Maybe I will revisit your post later, NAH.
That is just completely wrong. It's called an anti siphon valve. The name tells you what it's for. It prevents fuel from siphoning out of the fuel tank if the fuel line should get broken and drop below the tank. It is not there to keep the fuel line full.

Read section 183.568 - Anti-siphon protection

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/fuel_standards_parto.aspx
 

dubs283

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,343
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

it is neither to stop fuel from filling your bilge

this is exactly the reason for an anti-siphon valve

in case of a fuel line rupture, the anti-siphon valve is designed to STOP fuel from flowing (siphoning) out of the tank thus filling the bilge, it is a saftey device and is REQUIRED on all hull mounted fuel tank systems - otherwise you may install a manual valve to replace the anti-siphon valve

anti-siphon valves are designed to allow the vaccuum of the fuel pump to overcome the threshold of the valve whereas siphoning does not

to o.p. - try replacing the valve, they are cheap and do fail, also try running with the fuel fill cap off as noted earlier - you obvoiusly have a fuel tank/line issue as you have ruled out other items with your troubleshooting
 

gus-gus

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
169
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Check versus anti siphon is a large difference in any description. Check valves are one way valves, anti-siphon could be directional or pressured, but are not check valves. I work with valves every day and the terminology is not mine.


That is just completely wrong. It's called an anti siphon valve. The name tells you what it's for. It prevents fuel from siphoning out of the fuel tank if the fuel line should get broken and drop below the tank. It is not there to keep the fuel line full.

Read section 183.568 - Anti-siphon protection

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/fuel_standards_parto.aspx

this is exactly the reason for an anti-siphon valve

in case of a fuel line rupture, the anti-siphon valve is designed to STOP fuel from flowing (siphoning) out of the tank thus filling the bilge, it is a saftey device and is REQUIRED on all hull mounted fuel tank systems - otherwise you may install a manual valve to replace the anti-siphon valve

anti-siphon valves are designed to allow the vaccuum of the fuel pump to overcome the threshold of the valve whereas siphoning does not

to o.p. - try replacing the valve, they are cheap and do fail, also try running with the fuel fill cap off as noted earlier - you obvoiusly have a fuel tank/line issue as you have ruled out other items with your troubleshooting
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Interesting how you are trying to apply Outboard fuel system design to the IO forums and thinking they are the same.
An outboard doesn't have an engine inside the boat (aka ignition source for fire) that can easily cause a fire or explosion. Which is exactly the reason for all the rules for IO's.
 

gus-gus

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
169
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

I was raised on Shasta Lake on boat docks of our families and we owned no fewer than 20 I/0's and 20 Houseboats (rentals). Maybe it was before the law was passed but we never had anti-siphon valves. We did have check valves. I stand corrected. I apologize it was an honest mistake.
 

LilRedNeckGirl

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
184
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

That is just completely wrong. It's called an anti siphon valve. The name tells you what it's for. It prevents fuel from siphoning out of the fuel tank if the fuel line should get broken and drop below the tank. It is not there to keep the fuel line full.

Read section 183.568 - Anti-siphon protection

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/fuel_standards_parto.aspx

Thank you. Good to know someone else understands no matter what the name of the valve, it is ABSOLUTLY ESSENTIAL to keep that SAFETY VALVE in the system.. My post statred out "First, the check valve is a safety and function nessessity, Replace it but NEVER totaly remove it. It allows fuel to flow when the pump put suction on it, but will stop the flow in the event of a fuel line rupture. Without that check valve, a fuel line rupture could mean all your fuel ends up in the bildge of the boat, or getting pumped out into the water via a bildge pump..... I KNOW that that statement is essentialy correct. regardless of what someone might be calling it @ check or anti siphon. Getting technical on a name defeats a laymens forum. We all know, the valve this boater is talking about, after all, he posted the picture, along with the punch and broken retainer ring ....He mantioned that its a typical I/O in a pleasure boat, not a diesel in a yahat that may need check valves and secondary pumps.
Sans that valve, there is nothing to prevent fuel from leaking out of the tank, via siphon , through a breech in the fuel system, into the bildge of the boat, AS i explained in detail, in the post that might get read later.. NAH .... I/O Basics 101.... Apparently that part was read, and understanding the application and theory, really really bad advise was given that is " Simply wrong"
This type of nit picking on a "term" grinds my grits, in light of the vast majority of " laymen" that visit here, weekend warriors and shade tree mechanics, to which I also belong, not having 20 years working on boats or the knowledge of the true technical names, Yet, when a major safety issue is clear and evadent, supported by pictures and discriptions, that a laymen can understand, someone chimes in, spouting off that the name is incorrect instead of reinforcing the safety issues associated with removing the valve .
the KISS approach applies. Keep It Simple Stupid. most of us work on our boats once a year, maybe twice. we are not certified mechanics. we may or may not have the manuel or service bullatin. if your here to help, drop the attitude, read twice before replying, and take time to load and view the pictures.;
For anyone to say "The checkvalve has no other reason but stop fuel from running back to the tank." speaks volumes on their knowledge and and attitude....
 

mkino

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
43
Re: Stranded in the Catalina channel!

Thanks for everyone's input, and thanks lilredneckgirl for your thoughtful and thorough post. After reading it, I was sure that there was an air leak at the gas tank output area. So, I took the fuel line off at the fuel pump, and very scientifically sucked on it, expecting air and fumes. Got a mouthful of gasoline with very little effort (no, I did not inhale!).

Decided maybe the gas tank vent was clogged after all (I had checked it before) so I took the gas input cap off, and started it up. Ran great, let it go about ten minutes, decided that if it was tank vent, putting the gas cap on while it was running would make it die. It didn't. Ran it about another ten minutes and shut it down. Seems to be fine!!!

I will test again tomorrow, if it is good I will take it to the water (NOT the Catalina channel!) and give it a serious test. Fingers crossed here, and thanks again to everyone for their interest and input!
 
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