Testing Surge Brakes

[Thalasso]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

The main confusion seems to lie in the assumptions some on here have made as to how the brakes are tested with the wheels in the air. It has been stated by those in the wrong that just spinning the wheels and applying the brakes to see if the wheels stop is not an effective test...and on this point they are correct.....that is not the way the test is done....BUT just because they are going about the test incorrectly does not make the test itself an invalid way to test the brake system.

The correct way to perform the test here in PA. is to apply the brakes, THEN try to move the wheels. If they are applied properly, you won't be able to turn them very far using any reasonable method. If you can turn any one of them, then that brake assembly probably needs to be investigated further.

I can't think of a single instance where we would attempt to drag the trailer with the brakes fully applied. Pretty much all the tests we use to verify the brake system is functioning correctly can be done without ever moving the trailer.....or even having it hooked to a tow vehicle.

Well, then i guess the inspections i have been so privileged to be invited to, have been done all wrong. If what you say is true, then the State Police (D.O.T ) inspectors need to all get on the same page.Could you tell me where i could find the written acceptable procedure.What kind of Safety Insp.are you?( No criticism meant.)

??????????

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

Well, then i guess the inspections i have been so privileged to be invited to, have been done all wrong. If what you say is true, then the State Police (D.O.T ) inspectors need to all get on the same page.Could you tell me where i could find the written acceptable procedure.What kind of Safety Insp.are you?( No criticism meant.)

??????????

I have no clue what you are talking about....last time I checked the "State Police Inspectors" weren't certified to place a Safety Inspection passing sticker on ANYTHING. I am so certified. Pretty much the cops are checking for infractions last time I heard. If you live in PA., I am one of the guys you would take your brake-equipped trailer to to have it inspected for use on the road. I inspect cars, trucks, motorcycles and trailers up to a certain weight rating. Have you never had a Pa. Inspection done? No criticism meant....

As far as the question of what kind of safety inspector am I.......I am the kind of safety inspector who is authorized to place passing Safety Inspection stickers on vehicles that pass all the safety tests as outlined in the PA. State Safety Inspection code book. I don't know how to more answer your question.

As for you...are you anything more than somebody who happened to observe a couple of roadside checks done by some Statey? No criticism meant.....

I think it would be a mistake to confuse the procedures performed during a roadside inspection by a State Trooper on a Tractor Trailer as being the correct way to set and inspect the brakes on your boat trailer.

 

[Thalasso]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

I have no clue what you are talking about....last time I checked the "State Police Inspectors" weren't certified to place a Safety Inspection passing sticker on ANYTHING. I am so certified. Pretty much the cops are checking for infractions last time I heard. If you live in PA., I am one of the guys you would take your brake-equipped trailer to to have it inspected for use on the road. I inspect cars, trucks, motorcycles and trailers up to a certain weight rating. Have you never had a Pa. Inspection done? No criticism meant....

As far as the question of what kind of safety inspector am I.......I am the kind of safety inspector who is authorized to place passing Safety Inspection stickers on vehicles that pass all the safety tests as outlined in the PA. State Safety Inspection code book. I don't know how to more answer your question.

As for you...are you anything more than somebody who happened to observe a couple of roadside checks done by some Statey? No criticism meant.....

I think it would be a mistake to confuse the procedures performed during a roadside inspection by a State Trooper on a Tractor Trailer as being the correct way to set and inspect the brakes on your boat trailer.

This is why i asked. I presumed that is what you do, state insp. I also have a class 7 PA insp license.So this makes me a little qulified on such matters. No disrespect meant. I stated in my post how a brake insp is done in a D.O.T insp if pulled over. Tractor trailers are checked for brake shoe wear by looking at the shoes from underneath because they can be seen. They check brake adj by measuring the actuator rod distance. If you noticed i said this is how they do it for trailers,(roadside ) meaning recreational because the don't have air brakes.If you notice i am from Pittsburgh.Nothing was said about applying insp. stickers to anything.The question was how to check the brakes to see if they are working right.Belive it or not by my procedure and others agreement this is the best way.

 

[flightdoc]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

I have found that Testing surge brakes is where most people go wrong. Nobody likes to tested, why would brakes be any different. If you simply take the time to ask the brakes if they are working a lot of the time they will answer. They have no reason to lie. Just ask supernova, that is how inspectors do it. They don't do that infront of you because if they did then you would just do that and they would be out of a job but trust me. And just incase people start asking me. I am the guy who qualifies the guy who qualifies the school to teach and qualifiy ispectors around the world.

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

This is why i asked. I presumed that is what you do, state insp. I also have a class 7 PA insp license.So this makes me a little qulified on such matters. No disrespect meant. I stated in my post how a brake insp is done in a D.O.T insp if pulled over. Tractor trailers are checked for brake shoe wear by looking at the shoes from underneath because they can be seen. They check brake adj by measuring the actuator rod distance. If you noticed i said this is how they do it for trailers,(roadside ) meaning recreational because the don't have air brakes.If you notice i am from Pittsburgh.Nothing was said about applying insp. stickers to anything.The question was how to check the brakes to see if they are working right.Belive it or not by my procedure and others agreement this is the best way.

Um yeah.....I can't think of the last time I saw a Statey inspecting a recreational trailer on the side of the road....oh yeah I do......never.

Once again, I know how my stuff gets checked to see if it works, and I know how my customer's stuff gets checked. How you check your's is up to you, as long as you aren't affixing a sticker to it, I guess. As far as the BEST way....i think you are a long way from it....I personally think, and my informal poll here at the shop every tech, service writer, manager and parts guy agrees, that applying the trailer brakes and then attempting to drag the trailer is NOT even remotely close to the way trailer brakes should be checked.

 

[Thalasso]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

Um yeah.....I can't think of the last time I saw a Statey inspecting a recreational trailer on the side of the road....oh yeah I do......never.

Once again, I know how my stuff gets checked to see if it works, and I know how my customer's stuff gets checked. How you check your's is up to you, as long as you aren't affixing a sticker to it, I guess. As far as the BEST way....i think you are a long way from it....I personally think, and my informal poll here at the shop every tech, service writer, manager and parts guy agrees, that applying the trailer brakes and then attempting to drag the trailer is NOT even remotely close to the way trailer brakes should be checked.

Sorry, but you being stuck in a dealership doesn't let you get out and see how things are done in the real world. Some things that are required for state insp. do not cover all state and federal requirments and the process to check them.How do you check the breakaway system to make sure system is capable of stopping and holding trailer if it should breakaway from towing vehicle. Jacking up trailer and applying brake and trying to spin wheel doesn't fit the requirement. 175.123 sec c. You can't possiably apply enough foot pounds to replicate a breakaway by hand.Nothing was ever said about dragging trailer down the road. Just that you flip the brakeaway lever and tug on the trailer. Any out of adjustment brake or faulty breakaway system is then dualy noted.

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

Nothing was ever said about dragging trailer down the road.

No? Really?

Locked wheels, being dragged in a skid, behind the tow vehicle, is easy to do, Safe, and a Graphic Demonstration of how well the brakes are holding.

I guess You're right about everything.....

Just out of curiosity...how hard do you "tug" on the trailer? Until it starts skidding the wheels? Or do you have to reach full throttle without the vehicle moving and just being held back by the trailer brakes? I means what constitutes a "passing" grade?? If you stop tugging before it starts skidding the wheels....how do you know it'll stop the trailer in a case of de-coupling? And how do you know all the brakes are applying equally if you don't isolate each wheel???? How do you know it won't swerve violently when the brakes are applied at highway speeds?? How do you know one wheel isn't already dragging? It just doesn't make sense...seems like a half-arsed way to do things...typical State Trooper methodology...... certainly no way to properly test a brake system.....not for me when my family's safety depends on it's operation.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

Locked wheels, being dragged in a skid, behind the tow vehicle, is easy to do, Safe, and a Graphic Demonstration of how well the brakes are holding.

No? Really?

Just out of curiosity...how hard do you "tug" on the trailer? Until it starts skidding the wheels? Or do you have to reach full throttle without the vehicle moving and just being held back by the trailer brakes? I means what constitutes a "passing" grade?? If you stop tugging before it starts skidding the wheels....how do you know it'll stop the trailer in a case of de-coupling? And how do you know all the brakes are applying equally if you don't isolate each wheel???? How do you know it won't swerve violently when the brakes are applied at highway speeds?? How do you know one wheel isn't already dragging? ...

I never said anything about dragging it "Down the road."
A few Inches of drag would be plenty enough of a Graphical Demonstration for me!

Let's agree that this is not going to be a standard approved by the NIST.
The object of the exercise is to give the operator the nice warm fuzzy feeling that the brakes are working as advertised.
Your level of Fuzziness will vary!

(Note: Not Failed is NOT the same as Passed. It only means Not Failed!)

Will anyone be willing to agree on this procedure? ....

1. Jack up the Wheels and spin the tires by hand.
No brakes Dragging? Not Failed! Any wheel Dragging? Fail!

2. Spin wheels again by hand. Apply brakes using any and all means available.
i.e. Electric actuator, Surge Actuator, Emergency Breakaway Actuator.
All Wheels stop abruptly? Not Failed. Any wheel remains spinning? Fail.

3. Apply brakes as appropriate. Attempt to rotate each wheel with all the force you can muster.
All Wheels appear locked up? Not Failed. Any Wheel rotates? Fail!

4. Attach trailer to Tow vehicle, Apply brakes as appropriate.
Attempt to Pull forward slightly using no more power than you are comfortable with.
Trailer holds position? Not Failed. Trailer rolls too easily for your comfort? Fail!

5. Tow trailer down a quiet road at increasingly higher speeds.
Apply brakes increasingly aggressively within your comfort zone.
Brake smoothly in all conditions? Not Failed.
No Apparent tendency to swerve? Not Failed.
No unusual Sounds or sensations? Not Failed.

All previous tests Not Failed?
Are you confident that the brakes are working as advertised? Passed!

Steps 4 and 5 are recommended before each towing session.
-----------------------------------------------

I think that about covers it!
Did we really have to go through all this?

Here is your chance to add Constructive Criticism!
If there are any items that you do not agree with, What should it be?

The OP (Rember him?) asked how to test surge brakes?
Let's generate an answer, We already have enough questions!

 

[nigels]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

I never said anything about dragging it "Down the road."
A few Inches of drag would be plenty enough of a Graphical Demonstration for me!

Let's agree that this is not going to be a standard approved by the NIST.
The object of the exercise is to give the operator the nice warm fuzzy feeling that the brakes are working as advertised.
Your level of Fuzziness will vary!

(Note: Not Failed is NOT the same as Passed. It only means Not Failed!)

Will anyone be willing to agree on this procedure? ....

1. Jack up the Wheels and spin the tires by hand.
No brakes Dragging? Not Failed! Any wheel Dragging? Fail!

2. Spin wheels again by hand. Apply brakes using any and all means available.
i.e. Electric actuator, Surge Actuator, Emergency Breakaway Actuator.
All Wheels stop abruptly? Not Failed. Any wheel remains spinning? Fail.

3. Apply brakes as appropriate. Attempt to rotate each wheel with all the force you can muster.
All Wheels appear locked up? Not Failed. Any Wheel rotates? Fail!

4. Attach trailer to Tow vehicle, Apply brakes as appropriate.
Attempt to Pull forward slightly using no more power than you are comfortable with.
Trailer holds position? Not Failed. Trailer rolls too easily for your comfort? Fail!

5. Tow trailer down a quiet road at increasingly higher speeds.
Apply brakes increasingly aggressively within your comfort zone.
Brake smoothly in all conditions? Not Failed.
No Apparent tendency to swerve? Not Failed.
No unusual Sounds or sensations? Not Failed.

All previous tests Not Failed?
Are you confident that the brakes are working as advertised? Passed!

Steps 4 and 5 are recommended before each towing session.
-----------------------------------------------

I think that about covers it!
Did we really have to through all this?

Here is your chance to add Constructive Criticism!
If there are any items that you do not agree with, What should it be?

The OP (Rember him?) asked how to test surge brakes?
Let's generate an answer, We already have enough questions!

Yes I (OP) still remember myself! The above seems to be a logical way to go about testing most if not all eventualities and creating heaps of warm fuzziness, thank you! Thanks to all contributors!

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

My quotes weren't necessarily aimed at you Uncle Willie..I was just trying to make a point...My apologies that my message was mixed.

Anyway, I totally agree with your summary, except that Step 2 is not a good test (as stated by many other posters in this thread and for the same reasons they stated) and Step 3 really covers step 2 anyway and is a better test. Just spinning the wheels and seeing if they stop...well it doesn't take much to stop them, but if you apply the brakes via the safety lever (also known as the breakaway lever) and then attempt to spin them...you can feel exactly how well the brakes are applied....and how evenly. All the other stuff is fine, too, I think.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

My quotes weren't necessarily aimed at you Uncle Willie..I was just trying to make a point...My apologies that my message was mixed.

No offense taken. The magnitude of the drag gets lost in the translation to text.

Step 3 really covers step 2 anyway and is a better test.

I see your point.
All step 2 reveals is, that if a wheel keeps spinning, step 3 is definitely going to fail also!
But I must admit, step 2 only takes a second to accomplish, it is a nice graphic demonstration, and kind of cool to do!

Everyone... Feel free to skip step 2 if step 3 makes you nice and fuzzy!

Actually as I just wrote that, I realized that step 2 is going to happen as a natural occurrence as you start step 3.
In step 1, you spin the wheels to see that they are not dragging.
As you apply the brakes to begin step 3.
They will naturally come to an abrupt stop.
There went step 2, like it or not!

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Testing Surge Brakes

Based on our previous diiscussions and and a persistent problem found in another post,
I would like to modify the procedure to check for the dragging brakes Immediately after releasing them.
Also, as long as we have them in the air, Let's check the bearings too!

Let's see if this will work....


------------------------------

Testing Trailer Brakes and Bearings.

(Note: Not Failed is NOT the same as Passed. It only means Not Failed!)

1. Jack the wheels off of the ground.
Apply brakes as appropriate. (i.e. Surge Actuator, Emergency Breakaway Actuator.)
Attempt to rotate each wheel with all the force you can muster.
All wheels appear locked up? Not Failed. Any wheel rotates? Fail!

2. Release the Brakes and immediately spin the wheels by hand.
Listen for any ususual noises from the bearings.
No Brakes Dragging? Not Failed! Any wheel Dragging? Fail!
Bearings roll Smothly? Not Failed! Unusual Noises or Sensations? Fail!

3. Grasp the tire at the 9 and 3 O'Clock Positions.
Alternately push one side while pulling the other.
A very slight "Tick" should be felt, but no undue play.
Perform the same test using the 12 and 6 O'Clock Positions.
Slight "Tick" was felt? Not Failed! No "Tick" felt or Excessive play? Fail!

4. Attach the trailer to the Tow vehicle, Apply the Brakes as appropriate.
Attempt to Pull forward slightly using no more power than you are comfortable with.
Trailer holds position? Not Failed. Trailer rolls too easily for your comfort? Fail!

5. Tow the Trailer down a quiet road at increasingly higher speeds.
Apply the brakes at increasingly aggressive levels within your comfort zone.
Braking is smooth in all conditions? Not Failed.
No Apparent tendency to Swerve? Not Failed.
No unusual Sounds or Sensations? Not Failed.

All previous tests were Not Failed?
Are you confident that the brakes are working as designed? Passed!

Steps 4 and 5 are recommended before each towing session.
-----------------------------------------------

Comments?