To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

[Don S]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Here is the kit.

 

[MarkSee]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

If you could dig up some info on transom mounted pickup that would be great! Thanks again for the help.

Hopefully something will turn up with the transom mount pump but if that doesn't pan out, I wonder if it would be feasible that if you had to drill through the bottom to pickup water, if you could get by with a much larger single thru-full fitting then use a 'Y' off of that on the inside to go to each engine. Maybe using one the size of what is used for those 800+hp diesels would at least mean only 1 hole; just a thought.

Mark

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Here is the kit.

View attachment 178049

Thanks Don! You know I've seen those on some 25 Bertrams but I never knew what they were. I spoke to Mercury again today because I was concerned about putting FWC onto refurbished blocks that may already contain salt contaminants or corrosion. They said the blocks are water blasted, baked and acid dipped numerous times and after each time the liquid in the water jackets is examined for any foreign matter. If after all the cleaning processes are completed, there is any foreign matter still found in the liquid the whole block is scrapped. The only blocks that pass are the ones that are as clean as the brand new ones. After they pass that test the block walls are tested for thickness to make sure that although they are clean as new they are not rotted from the inside out. If the thickness passes factory spec. then they get re-used, if not they get tossed. I hope they really are as anal as they say. A full FWC system is an awful big expense to develop problems with.

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Some good new there. IF i were you i would see if you could just get a credit for the 555 or two have them supply you with mefi ecu's. I am not for one minute going to talk about the quality of either product....Mefi is by far superior in terms of its programabilty and expansion..the cost delta is extroidenary.

If either of those two option's are not avaible the good new's is you did not get stuck with the cost burden of a reflash.

Module/Harness, Kit MEFI 4 Ram Jet 350 12499116

Damm the price went up a few hundred dollar's. There is the harness kit even include's OS sensor's The reliabilty is the same the reprograming is night and day the cost is less... the performance and econ will go up. And as alway's there is a down side...merc will void your warranty..:facepalm:

Oh well... Your still in better shape than before..

I took a look at the MEFI version 4. I don't have O2 sensors on the engines and although there seems to be a bunch you can do with this ECM I just don't think it would be a good fit for what I'll be using the boat for. (just basic cruising) I got a free 3 year upgrade on the warranty and as you said "merc will void your warranty". In my particular case... just not worth the risk but thanks for pointing it out to me!

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Hopefully something will turn up with the transom mount pump but if that doesn't pan out, I wonder if it would be feasible that if you had to drill through the bottom to pickup water, if you could get by with a much larger single thru-full fitting then use a 'Y' off of that on the inside to go to each engine. Maybe using one the size of what is used for those 800+hp diesels would at least mean only 1 hole; just a thought.

Mark

Thanks Mark for the excellent idea. The only problem is I have a 4x8 stringer running right down the middle of the engine compartment and not enough room to run a water hose over it and under the engine. It's a shame because 1 hole is always better than 2. I'll probably end up using Don's suggestion of the below water intakes that mount to the transom. This way I can run the hoses under the motors and the pickups will be "out of sight out of mind".

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Hopefully something will turn up with the transom mount pump but if that doesn't pan out, I wonder if it would be feasible that if you had to drill through the bottom to pickup water, if you could get by with a much larger single thru-full fitting then use a 'Y' off of that on the inside to go to each engine. Maybe using one the size of what is used for those 800+hp diesels would at least mean only 1 hole; just a thought.

Mark

Thanks Mark for the excellent idea. The only problem is I have a 4x8 stringer running right down the middle of the engine compartment and not enough room to run a water hose over it and under the engine. It's a shame because 1 hole is always better than 2. I'll probably end up using Don's suggestion of the below water intakes that mount to the transom. This way I can run the hoses under the motors and the pickups will be "out of sight out of mind".

View attachment 178133

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Hmm im sitting here just realizing that the Mirage has a closed cooling system..and no external water pickup..that is that i saw...or am i that blind intresting.

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

It has to have some source of fresh water somewhere to cool the antifreeze. With a closed cooling system you either have a radiator with a fan to "exchange the heat" as in dry stack motors or a raw water source to cool the antifreeze other wise your motor won't be very happy for very long.

 

[Fun Times]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

I hope they really are as anal as they say.

They are,
Mercury Remanufacturing - MerCruiser - YouTube

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

They are,
Mercury Remanufacturing - MerCruiser - YouTube

Thanks for the video. I actually watch that to calm myself down every time my blood pressure goes up at the thought of this whole project and what it's costing me. The next million dollar question is do i pull the trigger on having them fresh water cooled? I just found out that Merc is the only place I can get a FULL closed cooling system for my motors because of the "555" ECM. Merc won't share the software technology so between the new ECM required for a "full system", the heat exchanger, new water pump and new water intakes I'm looking at somewhere around $8k for both engines. Right now I'm having a real hard time justifying that kind of money for $18k in engines. My theory, is even if if they only last 12 years instead of 20 without the FWC It might still be cheaper to not get them as I'd probably have to replace the heat exchangers once or twice over the life of the motors anyway. Right now just stressed and confused... :facepalm:

 

[Fun Times]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Good luck with your decision.:tears_of_joy:

 

[MarkSee]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

I will be operating the boat exclusively in salt water (new england area) and it will only be in the water on the days that I actually use it. I would like to be able to say that I will flush it with fresh water after each use but that probably won't happen.

The above comment in your original post, if maybe you change that 'probably' to "almost always" and just budget in the extra time needed to flush the engines and use a product such as Salt-Away, then you'll be like many of us salt-water-only guys and still have engines that will last a long, long time with proper maintenance and without fwc......and no holes in your boat.

We sometimes run out of time for complete washing the boat the same day, but always allow time for a 10 minute flush and quick hose down.

Mark

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

The above comment in your original post, if maybe you change that 'probably' to "almost always" and just budget in the extra time needed to flush the engines and use a product such as Salt-Away, then you'll be like many of us salt-water-only guys and still have engines that will last a long, long time with proper maintenance and without fwc......and no holes in your boat.

We sometimes run out of time for complete washing the boat the same day, but always allow time for a 10 minute flush and quick hose down.

Mark

Thanks for the idea Mark, It's not so much the lack of time because I always hose it down after each use. It's more the noise factor at 8-10pm and wanting to be considerate of my neighbors. Another thing I'm looking into is some type of flushing system where I could just plug in a hose and flush without running the motor although I'm not sure how effective that would be. I've seen flushing systems that plug into the high pressure side of the circulating pump but again not sure if just hose pressure would be enough to push out all the salt water and scale out of the block, manifolds and elbows. Another thing I can't seem to find any data on is how long the actual heat exchanger lasts. If that and all the hoses need replacing every 5-7 years like the elbows (because it has salt water in it) then it doesn't cost much more to just replace the motors over the life span of them.

 

[MarkSee]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Where you launch there are no "pay-to-use" water hookups like what many of our 'pay-to-launch' marinas have here in SoCal to flush the motors before heading home?

Is this the Mercury "patented" product you looked at? It 'claims' to flush out from everywhere....of course that could be more marketing than reality.
FLUSH KIT (#22-861932A 1) - Performance Product Technologies

I know you have alpha drives but on my Bravo the PO had a similar fitting installed on the input hose going to the raw water pump as the boat was slipped so he would put a hose on it and run Salt-Away through it; not sure how much good it might have done but couldn't hurt.

We store the boat on a trailer so when the boat has been sitting for a couple weeks, I use that adapter as a "primer" to get water circulated and coming out the exhaust idle relief ports before then moving the hose to the normal position on the drive. That only takes an extra minute to do and no worrying about being dry before starting up.

When you mentioned about the noise factors with neighbors and 8-10 pm:
Where we live, especially during summer when it gets dark later, flushing in the street up until about 9 pm would be considered fine; after that probably not.

Mark

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Where you launch there are no "pay-to-use" water hookups like what many of our 'pay-to-launch' marinas have here in SoCal to flush the motors before heading home?

Is this the Mercury "patented" product you looked at? It 'claims' to flush out from everywhere....of course that could be more marketing than reality.
FLUSH KIT (#22-861932A 1) - Performance Product Technologies

I know you have alpha drives but on my Bravo the PO had a similar fitting installed on the input hose going to the raw water pump as the boat was slipped so he would put a hose on it and run Salt-Away through it; not sure how much good it might have done but couldn't hurt.

We store the boat on a trailer so when the boat has been sitting for a couple weeks, I use that adapter as a "primer" to get water circulated and coming out the exhaust idle relief ports before then moving the hose to the normal position on the drive. That only takes an extra minute to do and no worrying about being dry before starting up.

When you mentioned about the noise factors with neighbors and 8-10 pm:
Where we live, especially during summer when it gets dark later, flushing in the street up until about 9 pm would be considered fine; after that probably not.

Mark

Yes, that is the exact flush kit I was looking at. My last set of engines, 1990 Mercruiser 5.7L 260 hp Alpha's lasted me 22 years with no rust problems and I only needed to replace the elbows once. Never touched the manifolds. That was when I had a dock so the boat stayed in the water the whole summer. So long as the engine is full of salt water it doesn't rust much at all. That is why the Titanic is still around after 100+ years. It's when you take it out of the water and the oxygen combines with the salt that you have a chemical reaction and get the rust. This is my major concern because I no longer have the dock and now trailer the boat every day I use it. I wish we had a hose available at the public ramp so I could just flush it and forget it. You guys have everything out there in California! lol. Performance Product Technologies (PPT) seems to have a full system for my engine for less than 1/2 the cost of Merc.

Mercruiser 2002 - Current Small V8 Carb & Efi *High Capacity* (Premium Full System) (#5320-8B) - Performance Product Technologies

That may be an option too. The potential problem is if I have to pay to replace the ECM with that system and can't simply exchange it with merc than I'm right back where I started. I'll have to check with them on that tomorrow. I'm a little suspect though as PPT says their system runs at 160 degrees which is what the raw water system runs at. I think it is supposed to run about 20-30 degrees hotter.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Lets make this a bit more simple. You have new or re mfg engine's? plz post the detail's of this warranty...i assume its a simple engine failure warranty...

One of these i assume:

http://www.mercurymarine.com/media/mercury/pdfs/service-and-support/Compare-Gold-and-Platinum.pdf

On Water Tow-In Allowance ? Provides up to $200 per claim occurrence toward the cost of on-water towing charges necessary to perform approved repairs to covered product......:sleeping:

Hoist/Haul-Out Allowance ? Provides up to $200 per claim occurrence to perform approved repairs to covered product on non-trailerable boats (26 feet in length or greater)....:sleeping:

Gold.....:sleeping:No electronic coverage and pump's

Platium..That is a very inclusive extened agreement to provide service....

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Lets make this a bit more simple. You have new or re mfg engine's? plz post the detail's of this warranty...i assume its a simple engine failure warranty...

Tail Gunner, I have the Plus-Series (remanned) 300 hp MPI's about to go into the boat. Here is the 1 year warranty from the Merc website. They gave me an additional 2 years for a total of 3 years:

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

Tail Gunner, I have the Plus-Series (remanned) 300 hp MPI's about to go into the boat. Here is the 1 year warranty from the Merc website. They gave me an additional 2 years for a total of 3 years:

View attachment 178305

Yes but you need to indentify a silver or gold plan...Its all in the detail's and will shed light on money and peace of mind. I do this everyday....details....perception...money.... all determine the value. To many times one assume's one thing and its completely different than what they thought.

You do know that part of that Extended Agreement To Provide Service also includes that a inspection of the install and probably the install need's to be done by Mecury Marine which mean's the company itself and not a certified dealers. It is more than possible that those engines were not or better said the boat was not engineered to run those engine's...Its critical to get Mecury Marine to sign off. They state so in black and white....

There lauguage is very spefic for a reason....No tinkering allowed.....

 

[dan t.]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

So you say the fwc kit is only available from Merc. Have you checked out San Juan Engineering, they make fwc kits for just about everything. As for the raw water pump, I run a full closed fwc system on a 350 magnum with only the pump in the Alpha 1 gen II leg, runs at 180 f. under load, lots of boats out there with fwc and only the pump in the leg. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

[tazrig]

Re: To fresh water cool or raw water cool???

So you say the fwc kit is only available from Merc. Have you checked out San Juan Engineering, they make fwc kits for just about everything. As for the raw water pump, I run a full closed fwc system on a 350 magnum with only the pump in the Alpha 1 gen II leg, runs at 180 f. under load, lots of boats out there with fwc and only the pump in the leg. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

Dan I only know what Merc corporate and every other FWC manufacturer tells me, that these engines in particular have to have the raw water pump because the gen 2 drives won't handle it on their own. I checked out San Juan Engineering but they don't make a "full system" for the new mercs with the 555 ECM becuase merc won't share the technology with them. Specifically what type of FWC full system do you have that runs on just the leg and what year are your engines. Are they fuel injected? Thanks for the help.