Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

[lowkee]

Well, I'm back at the boat after my trip and a much needed break. Before I left I painted one side of my 20' fiberglass hull, using the roll and tip method, with Pettit Topside paint. After letting it cure for a good 3 weeks, the outcome is questionable. Now I need advice as to how to proceed..

The pettit didn't seem to fully harden for some reason and is soft enough to allow fingernail dents, and I have already scratched right through the paint in a few places, just by carefully moving the hull around. The real bummer of this paint job is I can't sand it, since it just gums up my sandpaper almost immediately. What can I do to fix this?

Steps I have taken and options I have (so far):

I plan on putting a pearl clear coat over the topside paint, not for protection, but for looks (the pearl additive needs clear coat). If I can somehow smooth out the orange peel on the topside paint, I would be able to have the clear coat be a protective layer to prevent the crappy pettit from scratching. However, upon painting a computer case (practice) with the pettit using a sprayer, then coating the pettit with the pearlized clear coat, the clear coat curdles the pettit just like milk in places!

At this moment, admittedly I haven't fully thought this through, I am considering dumping the Pettit paint and buying automotive base coat, something I know will play nice with the clear coat. That, of course, means sanding off the paint (or using paint stripper!) on the already painted side of the hull, as I can't risk the paint curdling when the clear is applied. The sand paper alone on this task is costing me a fortune, and my arms are about disconnected from my body at this point.

This is a serious issue.. the Pettit won't fully harden and scratches super easy, but the clear coat eats away the Pettit! Keep in mind, only 1/2 the hull is painted, so do I continue forward and paint the other side or remove the paint from the painted side and start from scratch? Either way, I'm looking at a ton of work and have no idea how to proceed. Any ideas?

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

One part paints can take several weeks to harden, weather can help or hurt in the cure process.

You normally can't mix 1 part paints with 2 part paints or you get the results you experienced, its also a good idea to stick with one brand or product line from start to finish, this way you know they?re compatible.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Well, I'm no better off than I was when this was first posted. I have done a ton of reading and a ton of paint tests and have come to the conclusion.. I still have no idea what to do.

Pettit ($100) is apparently a one-part acrylic enamel paint, which means it takes forever to harden and can't be wet-sanded, as enamel paints only truly harden on the top layer and you can't sand it off or you lose the protection. So I can't sand out the orange peel or the sags without ruining the paint job. I bought two-part enamel paint ($60) thinking it would solve my issues, but obviously that doesn't fix the no-wet-sanding issue at all. I have urethane clear coat ($90) which curdles enamel paint, but basecoat paint ($150) costs a bloody fortune (more than the overpriced topside paint), but even if I opted for two stage basecoat-clearcoat I need to buy sealer ($100) as well, since I can't put urethane paint over the Pettit without it curdling it. So that means removing Pettit from 1/2 the hull which is already painted, which is just insane, since I rolled it on and it is thick and retardedly tough to sand (Sandpaper $$) since it is fairly soft underneath the initial 'crusted' layer.

Either way this paint job has been an overly expensive and insanely time consuming learning process. I can only hope people watching me suffer through this can learn from my mistakes. If I had it all to do over again, I would use automotive paint (Base coat/Clear coat urethane) and tell the topside paint makers to shove it. At this point, I still may. All in all, I have serious respect for boat painters, because I suck at it.

Any advise what to do at this point?
What would you do to complete this paint job?

 

[86RajunCajun]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Id prolly get the scraper out and get busy scraping that crap off. Use thinner if you need to. Sounds to me like you need to start over with bare fiberglass and get to sanding.


Sorry for the bad news

Good luck
RC

 

[Scrudgy]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

It does sound like you got to strip right back, but before you do try something else.

Although I am in the UK, I got some terrific help from a paint specialist - the good news is, they have a place in the US as well.

http://www.jotun.com/ is in Belle Chase, La. Don't call their distributers, call Jotun direct, and ask for their specialist advisor (I hope they have one there).

I called up the UK branch and asked for their technical specialist, and wow a specialist he was - solved all my problems. I had sound paint on my hull that needs some patching of holes and stuff, but I didn't want to strip right back because the paint was so good. I told the paint guy that I didn't know what paint was on underneath - and he still found me a solution.

I need to apply a 2 pack primer, and then a 2 pack polyurethane top coat - and you wouldn't believe how cheap the paints are by Jotun compared to the ones you get in a Yacht Chandler etc.

Jotun started off in Norway as a specialist marine paint supplier, and supply paints for the ship building and repair industry.

 

[allpoints360]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

So that means removing Pettit from 1/2 the hull which is already painted

It sounds like your best option.

Misery does enjoy company, so let me tell you that I once sprayed gel on half of an 18 footer and didn't use enough hardener or had a bad batch of gel or some-dang-thnig, but it stayed soft! Over a week, it got bumped and rubbed and looked awful.

I was totally creased. But once I accepted what I had to do, took a couple of days, I just laughed it off. I had to do it right.

It's all about the journey, my friend.

Good luck.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

I would call Pettit. Ask what will help......if anything.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Personally, after using a good quality single part paint I'm much more aware of the restrictions on hardness and limitations of use the single parts have.

I put white Interlux "yacht paint" on my boat and it took a good month to dry to the point where I didn't worry about scratching it with my fingernail. It looked great and went on well, it just didn't harden much.

That was during a relatively cool period in the weather. I did find that putting the stuff in the sun for a couple weeks in 80-90 degree weather did harden it quite a bit, but it's not a tough as nails type coat.

So in the future I'll use single part for covering lower hull issues, where the paint is likely to get dinged no matter what it is (and no one sees the dings in the water).

For good looking topside work if it's touchable/reachable I'll use something like a good quality single part epoxy, not acrylic, or an acrylic enamel auto paint with a hardener.

For any serious visible work that has to be tough, like the topsides of the hull, I'll be using the expensive two part paints and spending a ton of time on prep work to make sure they look as good as they are hard.

Thinking about it, why coat your nice solid epoxy or poly fiberglass work with a softer color coat? That'd be like covering a bulldozer with a tarp and expecting it to wear as well as the metal.

Yep, they're more expensive than it seems like they're worth... but I don't see a good way around it.

Erik

 

[lowkee]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Well, I finally bit the bullet and ordered some real urethane (auto) paint which matches the clear coat. Now all should be well. I just have to sand the port side to remove the Pettit paint and start over again. Oddly I don't mind the starting over. At least I know not to use enamel paint again. I even went to Borders and bought a few painting books and they all seem to agree enamel is on its way out and urethane is for 'quality' paint jobs. Whether a boat requires such a paint job is debatable, but at leasy I know it sprays easier and I won't have to wait a month for it to harden to where I can not be paranoid around the boat.

All in all, here are the costs, for those wanting some info before they decide which route to go (all prices are 1 gallon cans unless noted):

Enamel route:
Pettit one part topside (enamel) paint - $100, plus $80 for primer
Thinner for primer - $17
-or-
Generic two-part enamel paint - $41, plus $35 for primer
Acrylic lacquer thinner (for primer) = $11.95

Urethane route:
Primer - $35 (same as generic primer above)
Acrylic lacquer thinner (for primer) = $11.95
Acrylic Urethane Paint 3/4 Gallon = $25.00
Kirker's Urethane Paint Mid Temp Activator 1 Quart (for base coat) = $21.50
5-star brand urethane clear coar w/ reducer - $75

Additional stuff:
Paint Strainers 100/pkg = $4.95
Measuring cups (special cups show mixing ratios) - $7
18" x 750' Green Masking Paper Roll = $12.90
Double Density Sanding Block 2/pk = $5.25
Acrylic lacquer thinner 1 Gallon (for cleaning the paint gun) = $10.50
Wet-Sand paper - roughly $20
Sanding discs for dual action sander - roughly $30

Optional stuff:
Cheap HVLP gun: $50
Pearl additive - $15

Totals:

Pettit (name brand) paint: $388
Generic enamel paint: $279
Urethane paint (base and clear): $360

The HVLP gun and pearl additive were not counted in the totals

Note also the urethane is a 2-step process involving base coat and clear coat (although the clear is technically optional, most things I've read highly recommend it)

 

[allpoints360]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

I'm sure your boat is going to look great when you're done, but did you ever consider gelcoat? For all the effort, the result can be worth it.
The prep is about the same, but it is more durable than paint and can be repaired if nicked or gouged.

Was your boat painted from the factory?

 

[Mark42]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

I see you are going to re-do the paint job. But if you haven't started yet, all is not lost...

The Interlux Brightside paint I used was soft for a while until it baked in the sun. Then it was fully cured and hard. I remember the day it was out of the garage and in the sun, I could smell the paint all over the yard, even though the garage no longer smelled of paint.

So.... You might try putting some heat lamps up to it for a few hours as a test to see how it will set with some "incentive" from the heat lamps.

I too was initially disapointed in how hard the finish was. Now its no longer an issue.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

How many coats did you apply, thick or thin coats, how long between coats? Is the boat positioned to where the paint is in the sun?

I'm with Mark on letting it sit, out-gas and harden before proceeding. I've sprayed Rustoleum (enamel) and if it's too thick it takes for ever to outgas, month or longer. But, if the coats were applied thin and spaced out a day it seemed to dry much quicker.

I do feel your pain... I sprayed my outdrive with Rustoleum and it went to hell the next day, had to wait 6 weeks before I could wet sand and re-spray. When I sprayed my transom with catalyzed auto paint I got a massive run (don't ask ) 8 hours later it was sanded and resprayed.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Extending someone's suggestion, why not call the manufacturer and speak with THEIR technical aces. Maybe no help, but sure worth a try.

Contact Pettit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kop-Coat Marine Group
36 Pine Street
Rockaway, NJ 07866
hours: M-F 8:30am to 04:30pm EST

Sales Department (800) 221-4466 or (973) 625-3100
Customer and Technical Service (800) 221-4466 or (973) 625-3100

 

[sschefer]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Man, sorry to hear about all this. Someone mentioned stripping and re-preping and I hate to say it but it's what I would do.

 

[Rickairmedic]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Lowkee enamels can be went sanded and polished I will be doing it with the Rustoleum on my Starcraft . I will add I noticed you were looking at Kirker paints and I wondered where you were getting them from . You may try these guys for your paint products as they carry Kirker products and are quite reasonable. www.shartshoppersinc.com


Rick

 

[lowkee]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

The Interlux Brightside paint I used was soft for a while until it baked in the sun. Then it was fully cured and hard. I remember the day it was out of the garage and in the sun, I could smell the paint all over the yard, even though the garage no longer smelled of paint.

So.... You might try putting some heat lamps up to it for a few hours as a test to see how it will set with some "incentive" from the heat lamps.

I too was initially disapointed in how hard the finish was. Now its no longer an issue.

I'm with Mark on letting it sit, out-gas and harden before proceeding. I've sprayed Rustoleum (enamel) and if it's too thick it takes for ever to outgas, month or longer. But, if the coats were applied thin and spaced out a day it seemed to dry much quicker.

Thanks Mark and fishrdan. I have heard (and read) that a few times in other places as well since my post. It seems baking enamel is the standard practice, even in auto use. Right now it is getting cold here (35F-55F) and I'm not able to warm it up at all, so it'll have to wait until it warms up again or I get a garage with a heater in it (preferably the latter).

From what I've read more recently, it sounds as though adding an 'enamel hardener' (go figure) will make enamel harden within a few hours, which puts it in line with urethane (a good thing). I wonder why the topside paints don't include that? It is fairly cheap and requires a tiny amount (8:1 ratio). Ah well. The urethane came in today and the boat will be getting partially reassembled for transport until I move, so I can access my garage to clean it

This has certainly been a learning process, and although I spent more money than I ever wanted on paint, I think I learned a great deal about painting in general and will feel much better when it comes time to tackle my motorcycle, which isn't a restore project.

Lowkee enamels can be went sanded and polished I will be doing it with the Rustoleum on my Starcraft . I will add I noticed you were looking at Kirker paints and I wondered where you were getting them from . You may try these guys for your paint products as they carry Kirker products and are quite reasonable. www.shartshoppersinc.com


Rick

Thanks for the link, Rick. I would do some more reading on enamel paints before you risk a wet sand of your shiny new paint job. Everything I have read says you can't sand or even compound enamel at all or it'll permanently lose its gloss and protective coating. Also, if you are feeling risky, you may want to look into the enamel hardener they sell, as it speeds up the looong wait for the paint to stoop being so easy to scratch. Not sure how well rustoleum and it will get along, but I doubt rustoleum is much different than any other enamel paint.

I ordered my Kirker paint from www.pivco.net - They seem to have decent prices and stock just about everything. Their storefront seems whacked and I had to sign up and login for the cart to remember what I added to it, so just a heads up there.

 

[thrillhouse700]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

So did you use rustoleum on the top cap? If that is the one that gave u all the trouble maybe we will re think our use of rusto on our cap. Maybe we will just go with white perfection, Im sure white or any other light color of perfection wont show our dust dinosaurs. Lemme know...

 

[lowkee]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

I used Pettit one-part and some no-brand two-part enamel and both took forever to harden. I doubt rustoleum will be any different, but as long as you are in warm weather still, you may be okay. My hull was in my garage at 90F (not in sun, mind you) and still didn't harden for over a month.

Take a look at the enamel hardener, as it is what is considered standard in all of the auto paint books I picked up from the book store (for painters without an oven, at least). The site I linked stocks it as well as plenty of ebay merchants, maybe even iboats. I wouldn't want to sand my cap more than once, as it is just too curved and has too many edges to hand sand that sucker more than once or twice, so be sure to practice paint something with whatever paint you choose. Every book I've read stresses that, too.. not that I listened

 

[sprintst]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Not sure if in your neck of the woods there is a place that rents paint booths.

You may be able to rent a booth and let it bake for an afternoon with the big halogen lights...

 

[Rickairmedic]

Re: Topside paint and (lack of) hardness - Where to go from here?

Hey Lowkee I have alot of knowledge with paints both what I have learned by doing it and by reading . Should you get bored one day theres a few hundered pages here on painting with rustoleum .


http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2331682&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1



Smart shoppers is actually local to me so I dont have to do the online order I just go over to their store and get what I need no worries about the shopping cart They are really helpfull over there.



Rick