Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

bob johnson

Rear Admiral
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
4,306
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

45 is well aware of the need for speed for GPH to be valuable info. That was his point . . . ;)



so basically I was one quote behind, who it should have been addressed to!!!


my bad...I was gasping for air as i read his post.....not digesting at all!! ha ha


can we get a 4 speed for the outboard?????:eek:

bob
 

sethjon

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
Messages
692
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Well the main reason is that my first/ prop for this boat is getting beat up so I'm thinking by the end of this season I'll need to switch it, and might as well get a little bit more bang for the buck.

I wouldn't just change a prop out of the blue for the minor increase alone above :)

The engine will actually work harder to maintain the same speed and might actually give you worse fuel consumption. Stick with what you have.
 

Aloysius

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
484
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Overpropping can indeed be detrimental to fuel economy on marine engines.

automotive engines are digitally controlled, and rely heavily on the O2 sensor for consistent air/fuel ratio, around 14.7/1. no matter what the gearing, the sensor is gonna maintain the same a/f ratio.

Marine engines with carburetors have a wide range of air/fuel ratios available, with the key element being manifold vacuum. Power valves and power pistons fatten the mixture at low manifold vacuums, which is good for power and cooling, but bad for economy. You will indeed see a significant difference in fuel economy by cruising with the enrichment circuits closed, even if the revs are higher.
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Overpropping can indeed be detrimental to fuel economy on marine engines.

automotive engines are digitally controlled, and rely heavily on the O2 sensor for consistent air/fuel ratio, around 14.7/1. no matter what the gearing, the sensor is gonna maintain the same a/f ratio.

Marine engines with carburetors have a wide range of air/fuel ratios available, with the key element being manifold vacuum. Power valves and power pistons fatten the mixture at low manifold vacuums, which is good for power and cooling, but bad for economy. You will indeed see a significant difference in fuel economy by cruising with the enrichment circuits closed, even if the revs are higher.


That was very well stated...:cool:
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

That was very well stated

Yes it was, nice to see a little bit of reality on these threads every once in a while! Good job Aloysius!

I don't think that anyone is claiming that overpropping or underpropping isn't harmful to your fuel economy or engine if taken to extremes. I know QC and I agree that both extreme overpropping and extreme underpropping are detrimental.

What we are referring to is that the manufacturer's specify an RPM "range" within which to prop your engine, typically 4600-5000 RPM.

We're probably talking 100 RPM either way at cruising speeds. In most cases the effect will be minimal. Propped anywhere within the recommended WOT RPM range, top speed will vary maybe 1 or 2 MPH, acceleration will vary maybe 1/10 or 2/10 of a second to 30 MPH, and fuel economy will vary maybe 1/10 or 2/10 of a gallon per hour at cruise. How important any one of these particular parameters are to you will dictate how much hassle you put into propping your boat within a "gnats ***" of the optimum RPM within the range.

If your engine makes max power at 4800 and it turns to 5000 at WOT, then you are technically "underpropped", and your boat will probably accelerate a liitle better at lower speeds such as pulling up skiers, similar to a car in a lower gear. If you're turning 4600 RPM at WOT you are technically "overpropped", and your boat will probably get a little better fuel economy at cruising speeds, similar to a car in high gear. If it turns 4800 at WOT you are right at the power peak and you are propped perfectly for top speed. You'll give up a little tiny bit of acceleration at lower speeds to the smaller prop, and give up a little tiny bit fuel economy at lower speeds to the bigger prop. But you'll be 1 or 2 MPH faster at top speed.

At cruise speeds, the motor with the bigger prop will be turning less RPM, therefore requiring a wider throttle opening to deliver the same amount of power as the motor with the smaller prop turning at a higher RPM.

As Aloysius pointed out, this wider throttle opening will result in lower manifold vacuum. If the lower manifold vacuum is indeed sufficient to activate the enrichment circuits, then the smaller, higher RPM prop could get better economy. Again we're probably talking a difference of 100 RPM, in most cases atmospheric conditions and temperature will have a bigger effect.

On the other hand, if the difference in manifold vacuum is NOT enough to activate the enrichment circuits, then the lower RPM engine with the wider throtttle opening will be suffering less pumping losses and will deliver better economy.

It's no different than a car, truck or airplane. If you're geared or propped for acceleration, you won't get max top speed or max fuel economy. If you're geared or propped for top speed, you won't get max acceleration or max fuel economy. If you're geared or propped for fuel economy, you won't get max acceleration or max top speed.

You only get one of the three with a single gear ratio and fixed prop like you have on a typical pleasure boat. Cars and trucks have transmissions and airplanes have variable pitch props to overcome these limitations. You could do the same thing on a boat, but the gains aren't worth it in most cases. The prop slipping in the water acts like a torque converter in an automatic transmission and minimizes the effects of the single gear ratio. At lower speeds it slips more, which effectively raises your gear ratio. For example, from a dead stop my boat has about 90% prop slip, at cruise it has 12% prop slip, and at WOT it has 4% prop slip. Same reason the original Powerglide auto tranny only needed two gears while manual transmissions at the time needed three or four.
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Again It could not be said any better

It's no different than a car, truck or airplane. If you're geared or propped for acceleration, you won't get max top speed or max fuel economy. If you're geared or propped for top speed, you won't get max acceleration or max fuel economy. If you're geared or propped for fuel economy, you won't get max acceleration or max top speed.

You only get one of the three with a single gear ratio and fixed prop like you have on a typical pleasure boat. Cars and trucks have transmissions and airplanes have variable pitch props to overcome these limitations. You could do the same on a boat, but the gains aren't worth it in most cases.

_______________________________________________________________

Trying to keep it simple and effective is the key and that is not always simple..Propping the motor to the top of the rpm band @ WOT.. That is constantly being stated..Lets say WOT is 4800 rpm..That is the {limit} the mfg has engineered the valve train for. Can you run @ 4600 Or 4900 without concern..more than probably

So you find a prop that pushes the boat in those parameters....SS, alumin, 3 blade, 4 blade,5 blade,cleaver's, variable pitch (yes there are some) or even syntheic..:rolleyes:..In the end its really subjective and personal perspective and a argument can be made for each type..as seen all over this forum. Hmmm good thing oil types arent discussed in here..:D

For myself i am a 4 blade person...Geared for econ and yes i get max acceraltion and econ..;) at the expense of top end speed... i hope very few spend to much time there (wot) with I/O's push rod motors.. but that's a opinion...er fact..:D...what ever.

What really matters is keeping the motor within the stated MFG guidelines they are there for a reason..It works.. now can one tinker around..Absolutey but do so at your own risk

45 i really enjoy your posts they are always well articulated and informative


Disclaimer: For I/O's only...Now as to outboard's...Now there you tinker quite abit
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Right now I'm cruising @ 4000 rpm for around 30-33pmh GPS indicated speed and WOT @ 4800RPM for around 38-40 depending on fuel load on my mercruise 3.0 with alpha1 2.0 drive ratio.

My stock prop is 14.25 x 21, would I gain better GPH for the same MPH if I changed up to a 14.25x 22 or 23?.

I figure losing 200RPM per 1 pitch increase wouldnt be too bad with WOT @ 4600/4400RPM? I'm not really concern about hole shot fyi.

Cliffs:
Engine\Drive: 3.0L Mercruiser w/ Alpha 1 2.0 Ratio
Current Prop: 14.25 x 21
Future Prop: 14.25 x 22 or 23 Pitch
Why: Wanting better gph/mph.

Any thoughts from the prop gurus?


http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm

Your Numbers show a 19% slip yet 39 is good speed for a 20' boat with a 3.0..A 23p prop is a lot of prop for that combo are you sure of your tach and gear ratio..

If they are accurate you need more blade area...not more pitch that would only lower performance.. Trying to gain better slip ratio would be a 4 blade 20 in a alum or a 3 blade ss with cupping..The ss should give you the best results since you already are benefiting from lift the trim tabs give you..
 

balphin23

Cadet
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
23
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

Hey 45Auto,

It's been a while since I have been on but thought I could help you out with the airplane thing. I don't really know why so many people are arguing the fact of MPH because it makes no sense.

Boats are a lot like airplane yet they have additional factors to consider. The water resistance. A boat is much like a car going up hill all the time. You will find that by learning to trim your outdrive or outboard will result in better fuel economy because you are changing how much the engine is forcing your boat hull to "dig" into the water. Essentially you are trying to get the least resistance possible when trimming up or down.

The ultimate trim setting is variable. Meaning that there is no one place at certain speeds. The wind and water conditions will cause you to have different trim settings.

Airplane: before and airplane takes off it has to account for weight. That is the weight of everything. If you are getting 2.5 GPH that is your engines minimum usage (ex. your idle speed). You also have a maximum. You will also find out with testing that it is a exponential invurted curve, that is more gas is used at higher speeds.

Kind of like when they tell you if you drive 55 versus 65 you save 15% of fuel, but if you drive 45 versus 55 you save 10%. The first part of your testing is your curve. Typically you get the best GPH when you cruise between 60-70% of your engines operating RPM range. Mine is at 4800 and I typically cruise around 3200-3700 RPM.

Your prop is really just determining your overall speed. If everything else remains constant then your speed should vary. If you get 35 mph on gps one day at 3200 rpm you won't necessarily get this another because the water friction and other weight factors cause this.

If you want a prop for speed, but also want fuel savings, look for a prop that will give you the speed you want at around (70%) of your maximum RPM operating range. Your distance traveled will be good and your fuel use will be to. However, you hole shot will suck.

If you want a prop for skiing (like me) prop it for maximum tow skiing at whatever speed you like. Mine is roughly 33 - 36 at 65-70% throttle. At full throttle I go around 47, but my fuel consumption increases exponentially as mentioned above so I just tend to not travel across big lakes.

If you are like me and like the best of both worlds you have to do testing for both and have two props. I have one prop for Possum Kingdom Lake and another for our locale one for skiing.

DON'T FORGET TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WEIGHT. I would do ALL of your testing with the maximum amount of weight you think you would ever take, and you will be in great condition.

Hope this helps. Sorry if I rambled too much.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Up a pitch for better GPH/MPH?

The ramble is not a real issue, the fact that the thread is almost two years old is . . . :) Let's let this one die. Better if you start your own thread to discuss this. Thanks.
 
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