using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

[garycinn]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Here's another kicker (oils are so fun).<br /><br />When I was in the shop buying the Mercruiser sterndrive syn blend I picked up the dino Merc engine oil.<br /><br />Get this. The label on the Merc dino engine oil says it meets SJ, CF-2, and CH-4 on the label. No mention of CF like their recommendations state ( http://www.mercurymarine.com/fueloil_recommendation_faqs#1124 )<br /><br />Again, it is hard to take Merc seriously on this oil recommendation thing: Volvo recommends full synthetics for the exact same engine in the same application; Merc's syn blend has no API certs on it; Merc's dino isn't CF rated like their own recommendations state; Merc's dino is CH-4 rated, yet their own recommendations don't mention anything about CH-4 categories.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Hopefully my last post on this subject. I am 60 years old. I have been building street, marine, motorcycle and racing engines most of my adult life as an avocation. I started using Mobil 1 in all my engines about 10 years ago and experience<br />has shown me that synthetics are superior when it comes to reducing friction and ware. I have torn down my circle track racing engines after several seasons of racing and found less ware on bearings and journals than I found using dino oils.

 

[garycinn]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

I sent an on-line request/email to Merc asking about their new sterndrive synthetic blend.<br /><br />-What API cats, why nothing on the label?<br />-What % of synthetic?<br />-What type of synthetic (group III, IV, or V)?<br /><br />I'll post their response. After all, I'm putting this stuff in my engine in a few weeks.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Origianlly posted by garycinn:<br /><br />The thing that cracked me up about the oil and this thread was that there are NO API categories listed on the label.

Mercruiser specifies API categories and viscosities where non-marine specific 25W-40 oils are used.<br /><br />Technically, there is no API oil category for Marine sterndrive engine applications, and the nmma has yet to classify them. Without nmma classification, marine specific oils have been classified as OEM marine oils and other API automotive engine oils (CF, CF-2/SH). You will not find two and four stroke outboard oils with API categories either. The tcw3 and fc-w specifications are qualified by the nmma, not the API.<br /> <br />API oils are primarily automotive driven (SAE stands for Society for Automotive Engineers). The new synthetic oil was designed specifically for marine sterndrive applications. It is not recommended or intended for automotive applications. Marine specific oils are formulated with additives that are critically important to their application. Automobiles have little use for these formulations.<br /><br />Mercury has been trying to work with the nmma to develop a marine grade oil certification for marine sterndrive engines. Mercruiser has developed a salt-fog corrosion test they feel is critical in marine applications and for qualifying marine oils. It appears the nmma has not yet included Mercury’s salt-fog corrosion test, or developed an oil category for sterndrive oils. Thus the absence of one on their label.<br /><br />Per Mercury Marine: ”NEW OIL CERTIFICATION STANDARD<br />The USA’s NMMA has been working closely with Mercury to develop a marine grade certification standard for 4-stroke/4-cycle sterndrive oils, similar to the two-stroke TC-W3 certification standard agreement.<br /><br />But the 4-stroke/4-cycle certification standard is directed at only qualifying oils that meet or exceed 4-stroke/4-cycle marine requirements, standards, specifications and testing as set by the NMMA.<br /><br />One of the qualifying tests developed by Mercury Marine Engineering is a salt fog corrosion test, as anti-corrosion is one of the critical issues that is specific to high performance marine engines.” <br /><br />

Originally posted by garycinn:<br /><br />No idea whether this is a group III, IV, or V oil, what percentage is synthetic or what API categories it meets (if any at all).

Semi-synthetics are typically a blend of up to 30% synthetic base oil. Most oil makers keep base oil grouping formulas and additives proprietary.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by garycinn:<br /><br /> But, the label says that "we" have tested it and it is good for your engine

Mercury backs up their oil with this statement of confidence: <br /><br />”The exclusive Mercury Precision Lubricants one-year limited warranty is your assurance of reliability and durability. In fact, if any Mercury Precision Lubricant's product fails and causes marine engine damage, the entire system is covered. We'll even pay reasonable labor charges for repairs.”<br /><br />

Originally posted by garycinn:<br /><br />The label on the Merc dino engine oil says it meets SJ, CF-2, and CH-4 on the label. No mention of CF like their recommendations state

CH-4 is an emission driven API oil category for diesel fuels with up to .5% sulfur. CF is an API oil category for diesel fuels with over .5% sulfur. Fuels containing more that .5% sulfur are rare due to new emission standards. Mercury may feel that their new oil formulation no longer requires the CF. Again (over and over), Mercruiser is not going to go back and revise existing engine oil specifications. Older diesel oil performance categories are not automatically dropped when new ones are introduced. This means that when a new category is introduced, the lubricant formulator has a choice between starting over with a fresh formulation and running all the new and old tests over again (extremely expensive) or adding something to the existing formulation to pass the test (less expensive.) Removing any additives from a formulation voids the previous claims, but adding components (within reason) is allowed. If the formulator had some foresight, the current formulation may have even been robust enough to pass the new tests with no change. The latest Mercury dino oil is recommended by Mercury for Mercury products. I fail to see why it would not be the correct oil.<br /><br />

Originally posted by garycinn:<br /><br />Volvo recommends full synthetics for the exact same engine in the same application

Volvo recommends only premium grade gasoline too. Volvo doesn't warranty your Mercruiser. <br /><br />There are differences between the two. In many of their engines Volvo does not wet cool their manifolds in a closed system. Some will have different water pumps, ignition timing and fuel calibrations. Synthetics are desirable in some ways. Volvo apparently feels the special 15W-50 synthetic is best for their version of the engine. Their recommendation could even be fuel economy driven. It would be unreasonable to accept Volvo's recommendation over Mercruiser's, claiming one is legitimate and one is not. You own the Mercruiser. Mercruiser has done fine with their recommendations for over 40 years. <br /><br />Mercruiser doen't force owners to use their oil, or recommend one particular viscosity or type. They recommend many oils that can be bought just about anywhere. Its not as difficult as some make it.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br />

Could you take the time to explain to members why they should disregard the manufacturer's specifications (viscosity, API category, etc.), the oil maker's recommendations, the API's service categories, and the standards and testing established by the ASME, SAE, etc.<br /><br />No, Cause its just the way I feel and what Ive seen over the years. Im not telling anyone they are wrong, Im just saying that you can use other oil than the ones specified if you want and many others feel the same way. I still say and will continue to that Diesel oils work very well in marine applications whether they reccomend them or not. Plus I get tired of anyone repeating over and over the "Requirements" and staying completly by the book. There is a reason for the disclaimer at the bottom of my posts. It basically means, " I dont have a clue what Im talking about, so follow my advice at your own risk". <br /><br />I am particularly interested in any technical information that would support your recommendations. <br /><br />Sorry, there aint any <br /><br />Well, there is, but you would just rip it appart with retoric.<br /><br />I just post what I do because there are many many people using all sorts of different oils out there and I havnt heard of any oil related failures regardless of any oil being used.<br /><br />Now, with that said, there is a place for your technical information, and im sure there are those that like what you have to say, so keep on keeping on.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

My apologies for any negative sentiment you have toward me.

 

[garycinn]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by garycinn:<br /> I sent an on-line request/email to Merc asking about their new sterndrive synthetic blend.<br /><br />-What API cats, why nothing on the label?<br />-What % of synthetic?<br />-What type of synthetic (group III, IV, or V)?<br /><br />I'll post their response. After all, I'm putting this stuff in my engine in a few weeks.

I received an email. Since the oil is so new they didn't have a lot of information. They did fax to me a sheet about the new oil. It didn't have any technical information on it.<br /><br />However, the sheet (and the tech in the email) did mention that the trend for marine oils is to move away from PCMO categories and concentrate on the upcoming FC-W rating by the NMMA. On the bottle of the Merc syn blend, it says has the FC-W symbol and says "pending." Apparently, they have applied for FC-W rating, but the NMMA has not granted any certification yet.<br /><br />Here is more about the FC-W program:<br /><br /> http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/fc-w.asp <br /><br />Of course, the 2-stroke, TC-W3 program has been out for a while. This new 4-stroke (both outboard and sterndrive) marine specification, FC-W is just emerging.<br /><br />I'm going to give the new Merc Syn Blend a shot. I will do a VOA, winterize with it, do a UOA, mid season '05, and then finish up the year with another round. I like the price ($14.25 a gallon) for a syn blend for which Merc appears to have done their homework.<br /><br />My frustration up until now has been I wanted to run a synthetic, but Merc didn't have one, and the "current" specifications on their web site specified categories that were outdated. So outdated that even their own oil didn't follow it. I know, I know, "engine oils don't drive engine technology." <br /><br />I'll say it again, Merc needs to update their oil recommendations page on the web -- simple as that. They shouldn't recommend a CF oil for an '05 engine when their own oil doesn't have a CF rating. They shouldn't omit CH-4 category in their recommendations for a new '05 engine when their own oil has a CH-4 rating.<br /><br />BTW, Simple, what oil will you be running in your boat?

 

[LubeDude]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br /> My apologies for any negative sentiment you have toward me.

Quite the contrary, I have no "Negative Sentiment"<br /><br />Im just not good with words and have "NO" Tact.<br /><br />Youre doing a great service, Our ways of looking at things are just different and from a totally different angle.<br /><br />"I" apologise for making you think that.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

In many of their engines Volvo does not wet cool their manifolds in a closed system. Some will have different water pumps, ignition timing and fuel calibrations. <br />Maybe I will learn something but what exactly does the above have to do with lubrication. Please explain Oil Doc.

 

[KaGee]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Does anyone have any "pink juice" so that we can mercifully put this thread down and out of it's misery?

 

[RatFish]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

This ad for the new Merc synthetic blend four stroke oil appeared in the October issue of Trailer Boats Magazine . Note that the ad says the new oil exceeds the FC-W standard. <br /><br />

 

[garycinn]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

I guess in Merc's opinion it exceeds the FC-W standards and are hoping that it will pass certification once the NMMA starts testing.

 

[demsvmejm]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Sounds like a lot of self-righteous chest thumping to me. This has been a long thread with very little information.<br />IMHO TheOilDoc and Buttanic are right, manufacturers specify oil categories (ie SL, CF-4) as they are developed. They do not go back and change/update their recommendations when a new category comes out, SL is inclusive of all previous categories. So if you require SF, you can use SL and still satisfy the manufacturer's requirements. <br />As a professional mechanic I can attest to the fact that the OEM part/fluid is not always the BEST available, but it is the one with the best engineering opportunity for it's application. All others simply go by the specs provided by the manufacturer, with a few actually application engineered.<br />IMHO before deciding that you know better and want to save pennies by risking dollars, find out why the particular part/oil is recommended by the manufacturer. Then compare products. And there are differences between automotive, agricultural and marine parts/fluids. And alot ot those differences are for a reason, not just for extra profits. Be sure though, the manufacturer's product is recommended for the purpose of profit, but also because the manufacturer has a reputation to protect. And they are comfortable that their part/fluid will do that.<br />Thank you all for entertaining my ramble.

 

[demsvmejm]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Now for a humble request, where is a good source for oil testing results? Years ago I read a report on perfomance testing for various grade automobile engine oils and Castrol was the best. It was the only one that styed in it's viscosity range after the "shear" period and after a simulated 3000 miles. But I know things change. I still use Castrol GTX in all my automotive apps, but one of you stated that the Castrol SAE 30HD failed miserably. I like to stay informed, so any good tests out there I can read the results of? Thanks.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by Buttanic:<br /><br />Maybe I will learn something but what exactly does the above have to do with lubrication. Please explain Oil Doc.

Without getting too far off tack: A member commented that Volvo and Mercruiser are the same exact engine. Therefore oil recommendations should be the same.<br /><br />Some Mercruiser models use their own ignition control modules and timing curves. The different grade fuels recommended would effect ignition timing too.<br /><br />Ignition timing has a direct effect on combustion temperatures. Combustion temperatures effect cylinder liners, piston rings, valves, valve guides, piston ring lands, etc. Combustion temperatures have an effect on engine deposits and varnish build-up. Timing can also be related to the engine's load potential at different operating rpm. The load the engine performs under can be related to engine stress and wear. These are all issues where lubrication and the oil's shear properties play a role.<br /><br />Fuel is another consideration for oils (that is why you will find fuel type a major component in classifying API oils). Fuel helps to clean the combustion chamber and other parts. It also effects cylinder temperature. Fuel delivery can effect oil dilution. Mercruiser uses their own fuel injection systems and metering, and recommend regular 87 octane fuel. Volvo uses different fuel delivery and recommends premium octane fuel.<br /><br />The way an engine is cooled has a direct effect on the environment the oil is in. Better heat exchange from the engine will be a benefit for the oil. Water pump flow, manifold cooling, and coolant heat exchange methods can have big impacts on the oil's performance. There are differences between the water pumps and cooling systems of these two engines.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

TheOilDoc, <br /><br />I see you're up to 30 posts, is ya head ready to explode yet? <br /><br />P.S. I thought you would appreciate a post that didn't have the word *** in it.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[LubeDude]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by David L. Moore:<br /> Now for a humble request, where is a good source for oil testing results?

web page <br /><br />I have found this to one of the best places to find out about all the oil questions you might have.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

The FC-W certification should represent 4 stroke outboards. I believe marine inboards and sterndrives would necessitate a different certification since they fall under a different application/use. Some 4 stroke outboards run at 6500 rpm. I will try to clarify with the nmma when I speak with them.<br /><br />The nmma certification issue is like the DFI oil issue for the 2 stroke outboards. DFI engines require something other than a tcw3 oil. The nmma hasn't classified one yet. As a result many of the new DFI oil labels are OEM specific or unlabeled.<br /><br /><br />Member David L. Moore:<br /><br />True oil tests measure actual engine wear, in real engines, using standardized tests. Engines are disassembled, inspected, rated, and must meet established industry standards. The oil itself is very seldom analyzed like a UOA. OA's are a good way to monitor maintenance intervals and identify problems with an engine. When testing how oils perform in an engine, it is the engine that is evaluated, not the oil.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br /> TheOilDoc, <br /><br />I see you're up to 30 posts, is ya head ready to explode yet? <br /><br />P.S. I thought you would appreciate a post that didn't have the word *** in it.<br /><br />Aldo

I don't mind helping out with *** questions. *** is what I do.

 

[BillP]

Re: using automotive oil for a 4.3 stern drive

TheOilDoc,<br />Thanks for posting factual and credible data. <br /><br />Is there any data that shows corrosion resistance or protection between marine 2 stroke outboard oils? I was advised to use one "type" (meaning synthetic VS dino)for best storage protection but that was a few years ago. My own empiracle testing (diping steel and hanging outside)showed one "type" giving better protection than the other. I used two TCW-3 dino oils and two non TCW synthetics. It was explained to me by an outboard warranty rep that one leaves a longer lasting film. I'm not saying which one to avoid a non technical rebuttle war.