V6 150.......... Problem peeing

[Plainsman]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Have you removed the the tell tale hose and confimed that it is free of obstructions?

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

I removed the hose as well as the 90 degree plastic fitting that screws into the block and water streams right through. I even hooked the fitting back up, attached the hose that connects it to the outside of the motor and poured water in (while the engine was off) and saw the water disappear and heard it gurgle.

Any benifit of pressurizing that hole or applying a vacuum to it to push out or draw out an obstruction? When I got the motor, the hose was disconnected where it exited the cowl support and was full of spider webs and dead criters. Maybe they traveled all the way up the tube and then blocked up something inside? The partial flow, to weak flow, to no flow, still confuses me unless a blockage was just pushed along.

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Hi again;;I may be able to help with your problem, but I have a few questions & comments.
Questions:

With everything hooked up, ears on and running motor at idle, what are you seeing from the tale-tale?

From a picture you posted on another thread, are you pulling from either t'stat hose or connection to feed the poppet circuit? It's not real visible in the picture.

Are you seeing water from both t'stat openings (with t'stats out) without plugging or restricting one or the other openings?

Now for what should be happening:

With the t'stats out and at idle, you should have the water streams as pictured coming from both openings without restricting the flow anywhere or increasing rpm's. If you have little or no water coming from the starboard side, then you have a water tube or head restriction or possible pump problem.

Water should be coming out also from the prop exhaust, anode plates on either side of the lower unit and some (small amount) from the exhaust overflow below the cowl.

The poppet issue will have nothing to do with the tale-tale as they have nothing in common. The only thing that "controls" the tale-tale flow are the t'stats. The pump creates the flow to control. Everything in between are nothing but passages (water tube, water passages through the heads and power head and hoses...that's it).

If it comes to dropping the lower unit again, simply have someone hold the water hose with full pressure over the water tube entry and start the motor. If everything works, then the pump is the problem. If you have the same problem, then the tube is blocked, disconnected in the power head or the passages in the head(s) is blocked.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks ncfish, I was hoping you'd have some ideas. I'll try to address them as you mentioned them.

[colour=blue]With everything hooked up, ears on and running motor at idle, what are you seeing from the tale-tale?[/colour]

Absolutely nothing.

[colour=blue]From a picture you posted on another thread, are you pulling from either t'stat hose or connection to feed the poppet circuit? It's not real visible in the picture.[/colour]

The blank looking side of the poppet assy. ties to the T-stats from the 90 degree fitting off the poppet cover plate (figure 8 style). Is the flow from that fitting giving or receiving water from the poppet?

[colour=blue]Are you seeing water from both t'stat openings (with t'stats out) without plugging or restricting one or the other openings?[/colour]

The port side flows water. The starboard side looks to have water right up to the t-stat opening, but only flows when I restrict the port side a bit or they both flow sort of evenly with some throttle. There is still no water at all out of the tell-tale during all this.

Thanks for the other "what should be happening" info in your post. It helps me understand. I'll probably have the lower off again tomorrow and I'll try to get someone to hold the hose. Full pressure won't hurt it? Also, are my troubleshooting and startup to test it out episodes having a negative effect on my motor? I usually keep a hand on the heads to feel if they get unusually hot so I can cut it off quickly.

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it.

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Alright, now we're getting somewhere.

First, disconnect the hose going to the relief assembly (poppet) and plug it off. You shouldn't have this hose connected to the t'stat loop at all. (we'll get back to that).

Now, you should have two hoses connected to the port t'stat and one hose to the starboard t'stat. The starboard hose connects to the port hose via an inline tee or a second fitting on the port t'stat cover plate. The hose leaving both of these goes to the bottom rear of the power head and also feeds the tale-tale. This will provide what water is supposed to be seen coming from the tale-tale. With t'stats out, you will have no flow from the tale-tale.

With what you are describing insofar as water flow from the t'stat openings, you definitely have a problem below.
I would suggest dropping the lower unit (oh no, again?) and doing the water hose test. Leave the t'stats out so you can observe any changes. If water starts flowing from both openings, then you have eliminated everything above the pump. If the flow stays the same, then the pump is most likely not the problem.

Saying the pump is ok, then you will need to eliminate the water tube being restricted or the waterways in/around the heads.

Back to the relief valve....you need to connect the delivery end of the hose to the fitting on top of the motor (rear) below the flywheel cover. That fitting is used for either a pressure gauge or to feed the relief circuit.

Hope this helps.

 

[ronnieboy]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

i would suggest that you replace the upper and lower water tube seals, wont build much pressure with those leaking, and poppet HAS to seal against block, should have 5 to 9 # preload on spring, good luck ron

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

I forgot to add this.... Should the pump be the suspect, do this before removing the pump. I have seen the following problems created with the water tube when lower units are dropped and reinstalled.

With a flash light, look at the water tube and see if it's straight. In some instances, water tubes get bent when not seated properly and will not reseat afterwards. Also check the water tube end for deformities and an o-ring seal in place.

When a water pump kit is purchased, sometimes the water tube o-ring seal is already in the pump housing outlet. Not seeing the o-ring in with the other parts, it is missed and left in place. It's assumed that the old one will be used. so the lower unit is installed. Now you have a compressed o-ring at the water tube inlet. When the engine starts, the o-ring in the pump oulet either stays in place (restricting flow) or gets pushed up-into the tube.

To check the tube for (any) restriction, find a clean piece of pvc, dowel rod or stiff hose and push it slowly up the tube. If a restriction is felt before getting to the power head, then the restriction (of course) needs removing. Always a chance of old impeller or debris being in the tube.

Aligning the tube with the pump housing outlet is also critical. Coat the tube end and pump housing with liquid soap before installing. This will help with easier entry.

The reason I mention these issues is to remove any possible suspect problems. I feel your frustration and know that you want all possibilities covered.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks again for the replies ncfish and Ron. I was hoping my upper water tube seal was ok because when I pressurized it from the bottom of the tube, it built up some serious pressure. I will try to inspect it further though.

ncfish, in response to your last post first:

The first time I dropped the lower the water tube came out with the gear casing. It looks somewhat discolored, in decent shape and free of bends and dings. It sounds kind of stupid, but I don't remember looking through it to check for obstructions. I was just out there dropping the lower again, and I'll pull the tube again tomorrow. When I do, I'll check inside and also roll it on a flat surface to check for slight bends.

When doing the pump rebuild, I printed out the schematic and labeled all the parts to help keep it organized. It's funny you mentioned that lower water tube seal because I was sure I was missing one until I found it in the upper pump half.

If I can't get a hand with it tomorrow, I might try to get a small fernco or something to make a watertight seal between the garden hose and the water pump tube. I know they say not to have the water going to your ear muffs on too high. Is that only when I'm starting it, or also when it's running? Either way, I'll crank it up when it's attached directly to the tube and see if it solves anything (I hope!).

As for the hose routing between the thermostats and the poppet assy., there is a hose exiting the port t-stat that connects into the starboard t-stat with a "T" like you said (port/starboard difference aside). The hose then goes from the port t-stat to the poppet assy. (portion that doesn't house the diaphrgam). I think I see what you're saying. Why would one pressure regulated control (poppet) feed a temperature regulated control (t-stats), or vice-versa? I also can't find anything that the hose would go into at the bottom of the powerhead. I thought I found a bolt centerally located at the bottom of the powerhead, but upon further inspection while looking up the exhaust tube mid section, it was one of three similar mounting bolts that I believe held the mid section on. Also tried to break the plug free at the top of the water jacket with no success.

I think I just need to settle down and realize that I'm not going to solve this in one night. It might take various different ideas that you all are helping me with. I can't thank you enough for all the help and advice.

Tomorrow I'll start her up with the lower unit off and some moderate hose pressure directly to the water tube just to get it started. After it starts, I'll crank the water pressure way up with the t-stats off and see what we get. At least one benefit is that I can tell you every nut and bolt size involved in dropping the lower, and I've learned to master cold starts quickly!

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[gss036]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

"It seems to be sporadic at various rpm's, not just idle. When it stops, it looks as though it surges or "builds up" to a point where it will shoot out and also come out the exhaust relief ports below the pee hole. After that it might take anywhere from 1 - 5 seconds to build back up."
This is your orginial description of your problem. I think what (is/was) happening is that the pressure builds up, opens the poppet valve, pressure drops and then you get a little "PEE" water showing until pressure builds up again. Look here to see pictures of water pump replacement, picture is worth a 1000 words. It takes a while to load with dial-up so be patient.
http://www.in-depthangling.com/foru...91911/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/93/fpart/1
You said you got a manual, was it a Mercury factory manual? Maybe find a shop that might have an older motor such as yours and look at the hose set up to see where it goes back into the block, "maybe it doesn't" on the older blocks.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks again for the comments. That tutorial is amazing. That 2000 looks identical to my '78 so it's really a great walk through.

Here's where things stand. I did what you mentioned ncfish and ran the garden hose to my water tube directly (a cut off garden hose gave me a 100% water tight connection). Here is what I got!

With the t-stats removed and covers off:

With the t-stats hooked back up:

Being very excited, I took the water pump back down to nothing and rebuilt it step by step with a buddy as per the parts printout. We tried to watch every detail and would verify why each piece belonged where it did and was in the orientation it had to be in. We got her bolted back up and tested her out.

To our surprise, we were back where we started. No pee at idle and no water really moving through the prop exhaust. Given a little time, there was a gradual build up and a little 2 second stream coinciding with the exhaust overflow flow. Given a touch of throttle, we got a weak-moderate stream and occasional overflow spitting (not the large flow noted before). There was also some nice water moving through the prop exhaust. Higher throttle went back to the usual intermittant peeing/overflow with nice prop exhaust flow. Through all of this, the heads never got hot at all which seemed to be really good. Overall I'm very happy to be back where I was at or slightly better.

So...... I guess all this would point to my water pump rebuild being incorrect. The funny thing is, my rebuild put me right back where my original pump/impeller had me.

As someone else mentioned, would having the motor in the water change anything? Maybe increased back pressure or something? But then why did the straight garden hose solve the problem 100%?

Believe me, I'm grateful to be back where I was initially. Maybe I should get back into the water pump again? Maybe I should tighten the water pump bolts more? I didn't have a torque wrench that would work for in./lbs., just ft./lbs. and was afraid of cracking it..

Thanks very much,
Dennis

 

[Plainsman]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Impeller is oriented correct? Fins clockwise looking down at it?

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Dennis; It is evident that something is not right in the pump area.

Verify the rotation of the flywheel while running or just bumping the starter. Note clockwise or ccw looking down on the flywheel and make sure the impeller veins are turned opposite to the rotation you observe.

Some Mercurys have either a low volume or high volume pump. I can't tell you which your's should have, but may be worth checking in to. Someone reading this may know based on the year model? Make sure you were given the correct pump kit including the impeller. If it's too narrow, it will not pump properly.

Make sure the key located in the shaft is in place and seating properly in the impeller bushing.

You're sure the water tube is going completely in to the pump housing and the lower water tube seal is resting against the pump outlet? Also, is the the upper water tube seal holding and not allowing water to blow back down the exhaust cavity?

What you observed with the water hose test is exactly what you should see when the upper end has no restrictions.

Putting the boat in the water will allow for additional pump suction, but I'm not sure that you will see any/much improvement if the pump is not working properly.

Did you remove the hose feeding the relief assembly (poppet) that was connected to the t'stat loop?

Try the checks above and lets see if there are changes.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Here is the one that I pulled out. I put the new one in the same way which I hope related to the picture in my manual.

btw- It was asked in an earlier post- my manual is a Clymer. Maybe the factory one would be better.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Thanks loads ncfish. Your direct hose to the water tube made me feel so much better.

I'll check the rotation of the motor as soon as I can tomorrow, and see how it correlates to the impeller. If I understand correctly, the tip of the impeller fins should be trailing behind the rest of the fin?

The impeller appears to take up the entire cavity and almost looks to be sticking slightly below the upper housing. I'm guessing that's needed to properly seal with the plate below it. I wonder if I'm running into any problems because I'm installing the impeller into the housing and then installing that on the shaft, instead of the opposite way that was shown in that helpful link above? I used a little dap of grease to hold the key in place while I slid the upper pump assy. over it. All appeared ok and a quick clockwise test created a ton of resistance at the shaft.

[colour=blue]You're sure the water tube is going completely in to the pump housing and the lower water tube seal is resting against the pump outlet? Also, is the the upper water tube seal holding and not allowing water to blow back down the exhaust cavity?[/colour]

I think the tube is sealing in each end. Sometimes it's stuck in the lower end upon removal, and sometimes the upper. I didn't notice any bends or obstructions today. I think the upper seal is working properly because the direct hose connection didn't leak at all from up there while pressurized.

[colour=blue]Did you remove the hose feeding the relief assembly (poppet) that was connected to the t'stat loop?[/colour]

I didn't change that yet. The direct hose connection made me think I can get somewhere the way it stands now, but I will look at that next.

I guess if I see anything that could be odd it would be that while at idle, the water appears to go nowhere. I mean it isn't squirting out of the muffs, or the tell-tale, or the exhaust relief ports, or the prop exhaust. Maybe just out the slots above the cavitation plate. Is there a way that a leak around the pump could be filling that whole chamber with water and once it "pressurizes", the pump can function properly for a few seconds and shoot the water out the tell-tale and exhaust relief? Also, what is telling the water it's ok to flow in large volume from the exhaust relief? Could my poppet be allowing this if it's in a "stuck open" position? Maybe I shouldn't even be thinking about all that when it worked fine in your garden hose/water tube test.

Sorry for the barrage of ? ? ? ? ? ? ?'s.

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Dennis; I would check the rotation to verify the vein direction, then you're sure it's right.

I had a couple of other thoughts that may be helpful.

This may sound picky, but I would recommend moving the 2 hose connector for the t'stats to the opposite side of the motor. The reason for this, is the Mercury (esp. 150) tends to produce more volume from the left side. Also, if you apply water pressure with the t'stats out, you will find that water starts first on the left, then the right. It has to do with the water passage configuration. This will add more volume at start-up out the tale-tale.

I have assumed that the t'stats are installed correctly and are of the correct temperature for your application. They should be rated at no more than 143 degrees and the spring end of the t'stat should be inserted into the block (gasket side).

You indicated that both hoses feeding to the tale-tale have been checked for blockage, so that's out of the way. This includes the crossover hose between the t'stats and the single neutral hose to the tale-tale.

 

[gss036]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

CaptCrunch, Looking at the pictures, your impeller is turning in the right direction, does the key way slip?
In the last picture you are showing pee hole water, is that hose connected to the thermostat hoses? It almost looks like it is coming out the left side of the block. That being the case, what is connected to the poppet inlet. I see by your pictures, there is a plug in top center of the block. That is where the poppet line and water guage pressure line should come from.
My 89 Merc has the thermostat lines connected to the pee hole and to the left side of the block. But with the older motors, I have no idea. I have a Mercury factory manual and that is the best. Maybe you can find a used one on EBay or Amazon.com. Maybe you can find a water flow chart for that year of motor and then you will know where the hoses go.

 

[ncfish1]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Good morning; You indicate in your last thread that the poppet assembly is still connected to the t'stat loop. Until you correct this, you will not know if your tale-tale is working.
The only thing that should be in the t'stat loop are the t'stats and tale-tale connection. Feeding through or connected to the poppet will create the results of what you described earlier...(no water at tale-tale, then a sudden burst, then little or no water). I think Gary is seeing the same thing in his questions and his observation of the relief valve hose connection point is correct.

 

[Capt. Crunch]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

I bumped the motor a bit and verified that the rotation of the flywheel. It is clockwise from the top view down.

I'll move the 2 hose connector from the starboard to the port side like you said. The t-stats are configured in the orientation you mention. Is it ok for me to remove the thermostats, place the covers back on, and then start it to verify they are not an issue?

I checked the only hose I have leading to the tell-tale. The other t-stat ones still tie to the poppet assembly.
Here's a bigger pic of the hose routing in its current configuration:

If I understand correctly, the hose routing should be:

-starboard t-stat to port t-stat to where my tell-tale comes from currently (on the port side of the block), T'd to the tell-tale

and

- poppet assy. to the plug in the top of the block

I hope I'm seeing it correctly. One question- Why did everything appear to function correctly when the garden hose was connected directly to the water tube? Is my water pressure from the garden hose greater than what the water pump can produce?

Sorry,...... but I still have another question while trying to understand everything. Would you expect that my powerhead was replaced? Could that be the cause for all the hoses being run incorrectly?

Thanks again,
Dennis

 

[gss036]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

Being as old as your motor is, it would not surprise me that you have a rebuilt powerhead. I have one on my 89 200 hp Mercury. I would guess that 90% of motors over 10-12 years old have rebuilt powerheads. My orginal powerhead went w/13 months/140 hrs before putting a rod through the side of the block.
Your end to the post above has the hose routing correct according to my Merc Factory manual.
Soak the top plug with BlasterPB or something similar to loosen up some of the corrision that may be built up. Vinegar does a great job on salt build up.
I spray my entire block down with WD-40 occasionaly. Some guys do it all the time.

 

[ronnieboy]

Re: V6 150.......... Problem peeing

captain, your pump is like mine, a low volume pump, the fins are short and dont pump much, but while on top planing, the pump is not needed, just for idling and below3500. make sure the water cups seal and will hold some pressure when try ing to run the motor on muffs, mine takes several seconds to even fill the block before it will sputter out of the pee hole, takes a while to fill the block and heads. MAKE sure the poppet seals against the block. good luck ron