What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

QC

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

woodrat said:
Conservation could go a very long ways towards alleviating the need for new generation of any kind, hydro or nukes. Why does everyone ignore and dismiss this very simple, cheap possibility in favor or expnsive, unreliable and sometimes dangerous nuclear power?

I thought we had agreed that conservation was good, but wouldn't happen without jacking up power rates . . .

woodrat said:
I hesitate to assume everyone gets their news and opinion from the likes of Rush Limbaugh,

Well you can dismiss that as I don't. Good discussion woodrat. I strongly believe your heart is in the right place which is the sign of a good liberal. The challenge is that what you want are results, and pragmatism suggests that you'll only get that with compromise. Sooooo, chuck the hope for conservation and select the best viable alternative . . . nuclear.
 

LubeDude

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

I think it`s all a crock!

I do anything I want, I don`t have a catalitic converter on my truck, and I do what I want when I want.

If any of you think you can do anything to save the world, your a nutcake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One forest fire or a volcano erupting does more harm if there is any than people can do in a lifetime.

But, if it makes you feel good then by all means just stop breathing so you don`t raise the CO2 level!

And that`s how I feel about it.:^
 

crunch

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

jawdropper.gif
lmao.gif
 

woodrat

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Sorry, I still make about as terrible of a "liberal" as I do a "conservative". I kill my own meat and fish, cut down trees, know how to work on machinery and vote libertarian or republican about as often as I vote democrat or green. I've been through this before here, it is possible to not be either "liberal" or "conservative" but that would take a whole new nightmarishly long thread to sort out.

Conservation before new power generation is simple economics. I have designed and installed several stand-alone power systems for off grid homes over the years. The process goes like this. How much power do you use and for what? OK, now since it is WAAAAAAY cheaper to use less than to make more, what can you do to use less, so you won't have to spend so much money making more?

What is political or confusing or too hard or impractical about simple math like that? The problem is that most american consumers never have the actual costs of producing their power and energy sources put in front of them like that.

You guys act like it's communism or something to suggest that in a world full of more people every day, and a relatively finite supply of non-renewable resources, that we should be looking for ways to get by with less. And it doesn't even have to impact one's life that much at all, to use less energy. And believe me, eventually, at the rate the world is expanding it's population without expanding it's non-renewable resources, we WILL eventually be needing to use less energy. I'd rather start working on that problem while I have the luxury of time and space, rather than wait until I'm in a corner with no place to go and no time left.

And not one of you has actually provided anything but your heartfelt OPINION that nuclear is the only and best answer. Raghauler is the only one who even tried and I still say that I am sitting here about 40 miles from the rubble and spent fuel pool of a civilian nuclear power plant that didn't even last 25 years, and spent it's last years in constant disrepair and cost overruns, not to mention the fact that when the utility shut it down they dumped the cost of cleaning up and decommissioning on the ratepayers rather than have their investors bear any of the cost. How is this a good thing? How is that considered a successful long term solution to our energy needs? Where's the hard numbers guys? I've heard how you guys FEEL about nuclear, but what about the data?

Custombycrunch, I'm not taking your test. It doesn't really accurately reflect anything but your own belligerent opinion about certain issues. "condemning to death 90% of the human race"? Oh, I'm sure you've got the data to back that up huh? Then how did the human race stay alive long enough to even come up with electricity and chemical fertilizers in the first place? Are you really telling me that without electricity we'd all die? I'm sure plenty of urban/suburbanites think that every time the power goes out for a few hours, but really, you're an OREGONIAN, not some east coast softie! Can't live without "american idol" and your latte maker? Sorry, not biting! Try trolling in another part of the lake.
 

woodrat

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Here's another thing to add to the nukes are our best hope debate.

Let's say that, public opinion be damned, we're going to truck all that waste to a new facility at yucca mountain to be stored there until the end of time. So how many investors and utilities do you think would be lining up to build new nukes if THEY had to build, maintain and pay for the disposal site, rather than having Uncle Sam pick up the tab? What do you suppose that might do to the cost of that power?
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Woodrat, submitted for your approval......
Chernobyl was 20 years ago, & no one in the US has any thyroid problems or any other health problems from nuclear.....
You raise some excellent points.....
I'd wager ther would be alot of N.I.M.B.Y.'s if a nuke building frenzy were to start....
Check out the links, remind you of anyone?
d:)d:)d:).....JK
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htmhttp://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/troglodyte.htm
 

woodrat

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Those links are hilarious!
 

mrbscott19

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Would it be feasible to use the vast universe as our dumping ground for nuclear waste? Just load up a huge rocket full and point it towards the sun.......I don't even have the slightest clue if that would work but it sounds like fun. :) I know it would be expensive blasting it into space but with the sudden interest and advances in space flight it could possibly one day be financially feasible.

I am pro-nuke power, btw.
 

mattttt25

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

i enjoyed this conversation...good views on both ends. i deal with green all the time in my profession and point out that it really reflects a ton of things, from energy conservation, waste reduction, recycling, etc. we could all do plenty of little things today to help the world. as for power generation, i feel we need to explore and maximize alternate sources, such as wind, waves, and sun. but i'm also a strong supporter of nuclear generation.... it's about the best alternative we have right now.
 

woodrat

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Well, I guess I'm just some kind of whacko, because I don't see the logic in building more generation capacity when we are being so lax and wasteful with the power we already have. There is so much that could be done to alleviate the demand on our grid, and so far, from this discussion anyway, I see that most people don't give a damn and instead say "give me more!". Some conservatives! Sounds like more selfish entitlement to me.

I would hope though, that you folks who want more nuke plants built will lobby to have them built right near where you live. That would be the true test of how safe and benign you really think they are.

matttt25, the hippies and other liberals, who everybody loves to hate, have been exploring and pushing the envelope with alternative power for decades now. Inverters have become very advanced, photovoltaics have gotten cheaper per watt than ever before and come in so many configurations now it boggles the mind. Small wind generators have reached a very stable and reliable state, and are very cheap considering their power output. Batteries for stand alone systems are still the weak link, but are also getting better all the time. Although the best batteries are still the old ni-fe from waaay back. All of this technology is here now, and not only possible but can be very practical.

And conservation is still free.
 

JasonJ

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

It isn't difficult to live more efficiently. Think about how society has become Use-Once-And-Destroy. It used to be that a person would buy a car and keep it for years. Now the auto makers design new cars practically every other year, dupping people into believing they need this newer model. Its bollocks, modern cars can last 20 years or more, but not a lot of people want to keep a car for twenty years. Never mind the resources used to make these new cars that with the exception of a few get worse economy than the equivelant model from a decade ago. The term SUV comes to mind. Needless for most, but still being pushed onto us because they are high profit.

Use a laptop computer instead of a desktop, it takes less resources to build, and consumes less energy to operate. Turn the lights off in rooms you are not it. My average summer energy bill is $30, because I turn crap off when I am not using it, and the only fluorescent bulb I have is the porchlight because I do leave that on at night.

Carpooling doesn't work for most people due to conflicting schedules. Say you have to run errands after work, but the rest of the carload wants to go home. So you go home with them, then get in your car and go back to run the errands, Just defeated the purpose of carpooling because more fule and time was spent than if you just drove your own vehicle. Mass transit won't happen in this country outside of large cities, just too much area to cover.

Buy an efficient, used car. It has already been built, costs less to purchase and repair, and is more efficient. I am one to talk, I have a 95 Ford truck that gets horrid fuel economy, but my commute to work is three miles. I could ride a bicycle, but I am honest enough with myself to admit that I hate riding in the rain, and I often run errands after work so I need the truck anyway. I don't spend much in gas.

I plan my boating and fishing to burn the least amount of gas, its the best I can do.

I try to buy less fluff items than I used to, like DVDs and other things.

The main problem with conservation is it flies right in the face of capitolism. We all know if we cut back on usage and spending the resources would go farther, but then jobs would go away and less money would be made. Basically, as long as we have to live in a society that is based on money, we have to burn our resources at an alarming rate just to survive. You want to have a world for your great grandchildren to live in, you have to eliminate the human need to be better than your neighbor, which right now is accomplished with money. Get rid of money, you get rid of the problem.

Now that will happen.....
 

QC

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

JasonJ said:
you have to eliminate the human need to be better than your neighbor.

I believe strongly that we are hard wired to outperform our neighbors . . . That's why we tried to make better tools, find bigger and better caves, invented stuff, improved our lives etc. etc. I don't think I want a world where we stagnate and don't care about achievment even if we could engineer one . . . I think we're stuck with beating the Joneses (sp.?)
 

JasonJ

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

I agree QC. We are basically stuck between a rock and an suv. If we conserve too much, we conserve ourselves back into the stone ages. If we use too much resources, then we end up back in the stone ages.....
 

crunch

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

JasonJ said:
I agree QC. We are basically stuck between a rock and an suv. If we conserve too much, we conserve ourselves back into the stone ages. If we use too much resources, then we end up back in the stone ages.....

How about using renewable resources..... like breeder reactors?.... maybe build 10 or 15 a year until we replace all those gas stations with hydrogen stations?

Build hydrogen rockets and lob the waste into the sun?

Maybe go on and build solar power sats with all of that new found wealth?

Explore the rest of this system and maybe colonize.... get all of our eggs out of one basket?

Maybe.............
 

Firestar

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

I'm going to stop eating beans.8)
 

crunch

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Methane Stations? :%
 

Raghauler

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

woodrat said:
And not one of you has actually provided anything but your heartfelt OPINION that nuclear is the only and best answer.

I'm not sure I suggested that nuclear was the BEST answer, but maybe the most practical... there is a big difference between the two. And you are only offering your OPINION as well... You can not provide any more hard-and-true facts regarding this debate than I can.

Case in point:

woodrat said:
I still say that I am sitting here about 40 miles from the rubble and spent fuel pool of a civilian nuclear power plant that didn't even last 25 years

This is VERY unusual... Peach Bottom, PA is the second or third oldest commercial nuclear generation facility dating the the mid-1950's... it is estimated to run another thirty years at least. That's EIGHTY years. We have many more examples in PA, NJ, & NY of old and reliable nuclear plants that have already run well beyond the 25 years that you suggest as being, what, average?

And regarding NIMBY, too bad, we need to build power plants somewhere. I live 10.5 miles (as the crow flies) from Units One and Two of the Limerick, PA Generating Station, built in the seventies. I see the cooling tower steam clouds every day. I grew up across the Hudson River in NY opposite Indian Point, another ancient relic of a plant. Each of these facilities have been "in my backyard" my entier life, each has it's risks... and each are expected to contue to meet the increased electrical demand of our nation for decades to come... without creating any greenhouse gas or thousands of tons of cancer-causing air particulates. Is it the best way to generate electricity given the waste? Maybe not, but what choice do we really have? Go bck to my point regarding scale: 1 Nuke = 80 to 100 coal/natural gas plants. Conservation can not even off-set the HUGE exponential growth of consumer electrical devices we have witnessed since those first Nukes came on line (e.g. this dreaded computer).

Whatever, I'm just trying to suggest that we need REAL solutions, and nukes need to be part of the plan.
 

crunch

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Rancho Saco never even got on-line. It was shut down do to enviro protests and enviro court cases.... filed at the cost of a stamp and an envelope. So there it sits, while California has power shortages.
 

QC

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Re: What can we do to be more Green?? (Save money and energy)

Raghauler said:
And regarding NIMBY, too bad,

And that right there may be the most intelligent suggestion on this thread . . . 8)
 
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