what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

To make the point simple...

Why is it you have the regulation governing what can and can not be used?

Because some innovator tried something and either got dead or got someone else dead!

BTW... I ignored your diatribe on the engine block part number because you clearly don't understand... So let me repeat it... The block is the same, the casting numbers on the block are the same, the part number by which you order the block is the same.... IT'S THE SAME BLOCK!!! By using different parts inside determines where that engine will be a 115hp or a 150hp.... Just because the parts inside are different, it doesn't change the block's part number!!! Once the block is assembled, you can not tell which it is by looking, without disassembling... That is what I was referring to....

I am all for innovation... I just think that there are people out there who are smarter than you and me who have been given the task of determining what can and what can not be used in a boat... If they say 'only approved for marine use' then that's it! That is the rules... If you want to disregard those rules, then go somewhere that doesn't care about its citizens.... and has no lawyers who will crucify you, even if nothing happens to your precious homemade system!

You say you are an innovator... Take your system to the USCG and have them approve it... That is what every other innovator in the past has done... We called them manufacturers... you are nothing more than a rebel without a cause...

But, it has no place in a boat in a country that has rules and regulation, no matter how much you (or I for that matter) disagree with them!

Chris.....

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

To make the point simple...

Why is it you have the regulation governing what can and can not be used?
http://forums.iboats.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Because some innovator tried something and either got dead or got someone else dead!

BTW... I ignored your diatribe on the engine block part number because you clearly don't understand... So let me repeat it... The block is the same, the casting numbers on the block are the same, the part number by which you order the block is the same.... IT'S THE SAME BLOCK!!! By using different parts inside determines where that engine will be a 115hp or a 150hp.... Just because the parts inside are different, it doesn't change the block's part number!!! Once the block is assembled, you can not tell which it is by looking, without disassembling... That is what I was referring to...

You keep mentioning CASTING numbers. But what of the stamping? The 250 and 290 HP 350 also use the same CASTINGS. The only difference is the cam. But the STAMPING will tell ya which is which.

I am all for innovation... I just think that there are people out there who are smarter than you and me who have been given the task of determining what can and what can not be used in a boat...

So the government got all the smart people, eh? I don't know if you realize how ridiculous that sounds, but thanks for the laugh.

If they say 'only approved for marine use' then that's it! That is the rules...

Not according to The Constitution of The United States of America... Could I interest you in a little bit of 10th amendment?

If you want to disregard those rules, then go somewhere that doesn't care about its citizens.... and has no lawyers who will crucify you, even if nothing happens to your precious homemade system!

Or how about I stay put, and work on getting the government to follow the rules that they were organized under? I don't see how I'm going to be "crucified by lawyers, even if nothing happens". In a free country, one doesn't HAVE to worry about what a lawyer would do, if nothing happens. If nothing else, the sentiment that you and so many others share, is evidence that we have a SERIOUS problem here, that extends beyond starters and fuel injectors.

You say you are an innovator... Take your system to the USCG and have them approve it... That is what every other innovator in the past has done... We called them manufacturers... you are nothing more than a rebel without a cause...

It's not about getting approval, it's about not having the many thousands of dollars it would take to get such an approval, over a single installation.

Due diligence is good enough in my book. I pay plenty of taxes as it is. If you think that every innovator in this industry (or any other, respectively) did everything they did under direct care and supervision of the USCG, you are sadly mistaken. What happened before we had all of these all-knowing babysitters to tell us what it was okay to try, and not? Ever hear of Da Vinci?

He broke some SERIOUS rules in the name of innovation.

But, it has no place in a boat in a country that has rules and regulation, no matter how much you (or I for that matter) disagree with them!

Chris.....

Wrong!

I'm not any more obligated to follow the arbitrary "rulings" of some military body, than to follow the rulings of some madman in the street calling himself a prophet.

We do indeed have a [broken] system of laws here, but it doesn't include a de facto military dictatorship.

As has already been pointed out, the USCG rules don't even apply to fuel injection. So either NO fuel injection system is allowed, or ANY fuel injection system is allowed.

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I guess you're wife is right...

You have no intention of listening, so.... I'm done....

 

[ne7800]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Wow all of this because someone asked "whats the diffrence" you should just agree to disagree about this and go back to helping other with out any hard feelings about towards eachother it is obvious you are both smart guys and the boating community could be better served by your help then arguing so lets step back shake hands and move on

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I guess you're wife is right...

You have no intention of listening, so.... I'm done....

If there's one thing I've learned from marriage, it's that my wife is ALWAYS right...








...when she thinks that I have no intention of listening.




I think NE7800 is right though. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. So what say we agree to disagree, and get back to playing nice in this sandbox that we both enjoy so much!

Truce?

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Truce?

I'm all for that....

However, in respect to ne7800, I will answer the OP's question.... Mapping (computer programing for fuel volumes and timing and ignition timing; depending on throttle position, air temp, engine temp, engine load, fuel quality, etc, etc)...

Could you use it in a boat? Probably....
Should you use it in a boat? No....

Chris.........

 

[ne7800]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Wow that went well i was afraid you would both start atacking me lmao it kind of reminded me of a couple of dogs fighting with me standing there trying to decide wether or not to jump in and try to stop it, glad it worked i have hung around here enough to know that both of you have helped plenty of people and didn't the mods to get mad

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Woof!!!

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Wow that went well i was afraid you would both start atacking me lmao it kind of reminded me of a couple of dogs fighting with me standing there trying to decide wether or not to jump in and try to stop it, glad it worked i have hung around here enough to know that both of you have helped plenty of people and didn't the mods to get mad

I think for the most part, people are mature enough to have a disagreement without taking it personally. I've got plenty of respect for achris, even though we don't always agree. No blood, no foul, right?

Anybody who knows me, knows that my philosophy is that adults can behave like adults WITHOUT baby sitting. But if you treat people like children long enough, they'll start to behave that way...

I think a lot of discussions/disagreements will naturally come to the same end as this one on their own, if allowed to do so. It seems like a lot of the time, the "lock thread" button comes out way prematurely, and THAT's when people become frustrated, and bitter.

Now, I've just had a brilliant idea! I've got a nice set of steel letter stamps... Lets see here,

S... A... E... J... 1... 2...

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

... I just think that there are people out there who are smarter than you and me who have been given the task of determining what can and what can not be used in a boat...

I've really been trying to stay away from this little sub-plot because I consider this thread pretty much dead after krisnowicki's contribution.
But her I go sticking my nose in when I should just sit here and read
If you are referring to engineers, I agree to a point. I've met some that live in a bubble.
I you are referring to politicians, I disagree. The overwhelming majority are lawyers. Grew up with em'. Common sense and mechanical abilities are not not strong points, much less engineering capabilities.
In reality they are both in the mix.
A chain is only as good as it's weakest link.

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Wow all of this because someone asked "whats the difference" you should just agree to disagree about this and go back to helping other with out any hard feelings about towards each other it is obvious you are both smart guys and the boating community could be better served by your help then arguing so lets step back shake hands and move on

Helluva thread - ain't it?
Nothing like a good heated debate to get the blood going!
Tell you what though, there are a couple guys here who missed their calling as trail lawyers.

Someone else wanted to know "what's the difference" - same topic.
I suggested they start another thread since this one kinda took another direction. The moderator closed it almost as fast as it opened - nowhere near as lively.

 

[mkast]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I have run into this debate once (or twice) before,
it had to do with aircraft parts.
FBO (Fixed Base Operator) guy asks the FAA, at a yearly seminar...
"Why do I have to buy the FAA/PMA (Parts Manufacturer Approval ) approved wheel bearings for a Cessna for XXX dollars when I can buy the exact same bearings from Auto Zone for XX dollars?"
Rather than argue with the individual, (it's the law) the FAA told him to
feel free to perform and document the testing required to prove the part is equal to or better than the FAA/PMA approved part.
Notice, the testing required, not his years of experience.
In the real world, (read legal world), experience doesn't mean jack in a court of law (compared to documented testing).
So you want to be legal...
take your boat, burn it, document it...
build another one...
run a freighter into it, document it...
build another one...
sink it, document it...
build another one, run it into a sea wall at WOT at full speed, document it...
and so on, and so on, and so on.
This is how you can change the design of YOUR boat and be legal.
Cost too much... then don't change the design of your boat.
Isn't this kind of like a driver's license...
you don't really need one... until you get pulled over.

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

In the real world, (read legal world), experience doesn't mean jack in a court of law (compared to documented testing).

Good argument.
Two problems with it though.
Airplanes are definitely in a different ballpark for obvious reasons.
How come they have expert witnesses? The prosecution doesn't go to trial without one (like American Express!).

 

[mkast]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Good argument.
Two problems with it though.

Airplanes are definitely in a different ballpark for obvious reasons.

Why, because they blow up and kill people?

How come they have expert witnesses? The prosecution doesn't go to trial without one (like American Express!).

As I said, compared to documented testing.

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

That's one area where recreational boats and airplanes differ.
As you know, planes have a fully documented and significantly stricter life.
Boats only have to be safe within USCG R&R.
The vehicles and baggage are apples and oranges.

 

[Tacklewasher]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Remember the person sued McDonalds for the hot coffee spill? Now if I remember correctly McDonalds did finally either win the case on appeal or got the judgment reduced a whole bunch.

Pet peeve.

The McDonalds coffee case was an appropriate class action suit brought against a company that flagrantly ignored the health and safety rules, despite being warned numerous times. What the media presented on this case was complete BS.

Please don't reference it if you haven't read the actual case fact and just rely on the media crap.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

About a year after that case, a fellow I know who works in the states attorneys office had the same thing happen.
Bad timing on his part!

PS - Best of luck keeping this crowd silent!

 

[mkast]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

As you know, planes have a fully documented and significantly stricter life.

If you believe that, I have some land for sale about twenty miles EAST of Milwaukee, needs a little fill.

I haven't had that good a laugh in quite sometime.

Just like boat owners, the aircraft owner just doesn't enter anything into the log book, "I don't know how that happened, I bought it like that, it's been like that for years, they are all like that..."

The law states, if maintenance is performed on the aircraft, a log book entry must be made.
USCG regulations state parts must be approved.
In both cases, the owner simply ignores the law.
Rationalizes, "It'll be okay, I know what I'M doing!"

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I have pretty much the same response to you as you had for me.
I don't know enough about planes, but I do know that is not realistic.
I have a friend of mine that is a pilot and his plane was grounded until a certified mechanic put his name on the paperwork. Doubtful he tore the fuel system apart as part of the inspection, but still, significantly stricter than boats.

At least I just got a promotion out of it!

 

[Hitech]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Remember the person sued McDonalds for the hot coffee spill? Now if I remember correctly McDonalds did finally either win the case on appeal or got the judgment reduced a whole bunch.

McDonalds still lost the case on appeal. They did get the judgement lowered.

As in most things, there was a lot more to that case than most realize. Much of the rumor mill surrounding that case is false. McDonalds lost that case for VERY GOOD reasons. And no one needs "Warning: Hot Coffee" on their cups. McDonalds could have had those labels and still would have lost the case.