will pl work for transom

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ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

bcddd214 said:
Doesn't make a difference if you are working with a chemical bond.
a mechanical works fine to as long as it is clean...
Click to expand...

It makes a big difference, two layers of carbon in polyester will delam when stressed, 8 layers of mat are heavy and weak.

If you said to use carbon, possibly some UNI (glass) and epoxy, then it would be fine, overkill, but fine.
 
ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

bcddd214 said:
If you are not trying to mix polyester with vinylester, you are oky doky!
Thats like trying to stick a plastic coke bottle to butter. Doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Polyester and Vinylester work together just fine.
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

The entire chemical structure of carbon fiber is to NOT be brittle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
so a strong layer in between the brittle glass is only going to increase the strength of your glass.
A sandwich application is an ideal application. when you laminate the layers together, you create a stronger material base.
Other examples of this may include,,,
Tires on a car have various layers....
Topcoat come in layers and each layer has a different job. Why would layers in glass with carbon fiber be any different?
They work beautifully together.
They carbon increases the quality of the glass. The glass lowers the quality of the carbon fiber. But he started with glass....


ondarvr said:
Carbon laminates, unlike glass fiber laminates, can be very brittle, they don't flex much and when they fail it tends to be a catastrophic failure. This is further compromised if used with polyester resin.
Click to expand...
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

The products used in a tire are chosen for a specific need and are combined to work together and enhance each others strong points.

The combination of products you've chosen work against each others strengths to form a substandard laminate for its cost and weight.

This is a quote from your link.

"Carbon fiber is very strong when stretched or bent, but weak when compressed or exposed to high shock (e.g. a carbon fiber bar is extremely difficult to bend, but will crack easily if hit with a hammer)."
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

Delamination is due to your glue failing or too much air/distance between your layers causing your glue/resin to fail.
If it's layed up correctly they bond beautifully, because of the glue, not the chemical structural differences between your cloth/base.


bcddd214 said:
The entire chemical structure of carbon fiber is to NOT be brittle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
so a strong layer in between the brittle glass is only going to increase the strength of your glass.
A sandwich application is an ideal application. when you laminate the layers together, you create a stronger material base.
Other examples of this may include,,,
Tires on a car have various layers....
Topcoat come in layers and each layer has a different job. Why would layers in glass with carbon fiber be any different?
They work beautifully together.
They carbon increases the quality of the glass. The glass lowers the quality of the carbon fiber. But he started with glass....
Click to expand...
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

Just like glueing two of anythings together....


bcddd214 said:
Delamination is due to your glue failing or too much air/distance between your layers causing your glue/resin to fail.
If it's layed up correctly they bond beautifully, because of the glue, not the chemical structural differences between your cloth/base.
Click to expand...
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

Polyesters are poor glues, they rely on the fibers for strength, this results in poor bonds between layers that don't have a layer of CSM between them, plus between them and the substrate.

Your laminate would have plywood (well actually honeycomb) 1 layer of carbon + 1 carbon + 8 Layers of mat + one layer of roving.

You have a weak bond between the honeycomb and the first layer of carbon, then a weak bond between the two layers of carbon. Plus polyester has a difficult time bonding to carbon, so there are even more issues.
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

Honeycomb is great stuff and makes a perfect core. Laid in a few decks with it.
Honeycomb core
Two layers of carbon fiber
last was biaxial x3

The last biaxial layer was really only used/needed as a filler to get us up another 1/8

about 160 sq ft of deck done in about 7 days with a 3 man team.

ondarvr said:
Polyesters are poor glues, they rely on the fibers for strength, this results in poor bonds between layers that don't have a layer CSM between them, plus between them and the substrate.

Your laminate would have plywood (well actually honeycomb) 1 layer of carbon + 1 carbon + 8 Layers of mat + one layer roving.

You have a weak bond between the honeycomb and the first layer of carbon, then a week layer between the two layers of carbon. Plus polyester has a difficult time bonding to carbon, so there are even more issues.
Click to expand...
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

Yeah, because of the obvious holes. Its a core not a layer.
Think EGG!

ondarvr said:
Polyesters are poor glues, they rely on the fibers for strength, this results in poor bonds between layers that don't have a layer CSM between them, plus between them and the substrate.

Your laminate would have plywood (well actually honeycomb) 1 layer of carbon + 1 carbon + 8 Layers of mat + one layer roving.

You have a weak bond between the honeycomb and the first layer of carbon, then a week layer between the two layers of carbon. Plus polyester has a difficult time bonding to carbon, so there are even more issues.
Click to expand...
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

bcddd214 said:
Honeycomb is great stuff and makes a perfect core. Laid in a few decks with it.
Honeycomb core
Two layers of carbon fiber
last was biaxial x3

The last biaxial layer was really only used/needed as a filler to get us up another 1/8

about 160 sq ft of deck done in about 7 days with a 3 man team.
Click to expand...

What does this have to do with explaining your selection of products and methods.
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

I know what all these products are, I've used them for many years, I think you may be confused.
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

BuuuuuuuuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's like blaming a camp fire on Mount St. Helen's
That is a field study conducted years ago on MAJOR industrial fiberglass applications.
We are dealing with two totally different animals here...

ondarvr said:
It should read "layer of CSM."

Chopped Strand Mat.
Click to expand...
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: will pl work for transom

bcddd214 said:
BuuuuuuuuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's like blaming a camp fire on Mount St. Helen's
That is a field study conducted years ago on MAJOR industrial fiberglass applications.
We are dealing with two totally different animals here...
Click to expand...

What are you talking about??
 
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bcddd214

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Re: will pl work for transom

floor, transom, wall, ballast encasement, you name it. laminating is laminating and a core is a core.
Understanding what you are working with is the main thing and none of it is rocket science.
your glueing fibers together. whether it is fiberglass, carbon fiber, feathers, whatever. the quality of the fiber is going to determine how it preforms under stress.
A fiber is a cylinder that you are encasing 365 degrees with glue.
Only problem is the glue is brittle buy nature hence the fibers for flex.
the less glue in combination with no air bubbles is your ideal layup allowing the fiber to FULLY perform.
the more glue/resin you have, the greater your chances of your brittle glue to fail.

when working with something that is going to have a lot of force applied to it, you want a good core with a FLEXIBLE shell. Carbon fiber is your ideal candidate for stringers, decks, transoms etc.....


The CMS testing was with the performance of fiberglass when laid up at angles and after rigorous testing using OLD technology glass.
 
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