will pl work for transom

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

The link above appears to be several hundred pages, I read through some of it, but it had nothing to do with what we're discussing here, at least the part I read, so please link to the exact portion you want me to read. It looks as if you are just Googling things and linking them without knowing what they actually say.

So far you've been rambling with generalities, please get specific and explain the benefits of your proposed laminate schedule.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

Very simply, carbon fiber is stronger than glass. if you are putting in layers, slap one in early with carbon fiber for strength and 'shatter proofing' capabilities.
Get it in early and get plenty of layers of ANYTHING on top of it because it is impossible to work with when it is close to your topcoat layer.
If you expose it when sanding it becomes like a hangnail that takes part of your finger with it.
It really sucks like that.
Hence, sandwiching it or using it for layer number 1 and 2.

The link above appears to be several hundred pages, I read through some of it, but it had nothing to do with what we're discussing here, at least the part I read, so please link to the exact portion you want me to read. It looks as if you are just Googling things and linking them without knowing what they actually say.

So far you've been rambling with generalities, please get specific and explain the benefits your proposed laminate schedule.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

C/F is of little value when its buried in the laminate, it needs to as close to the outer skin of each side to perform at is best. If it needs protection it can have a layer of some other fiber over it, but having it next to the core is the least effective way to use it.

You still have the problem of using polyester with the C/F and the resulting interlaminate sheer not only from the poor bond to the C/F, but from not having CSM between the layers.

Using carbon does not produce a ?shatterproof? laminate, used correctly it increases many aspects of the laminates strength, but being ?shatterproof? isn?t one of them.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

My bad, thought you were referring to something else.
Chopped strand mat is a filler. has no real use other than to prevent your woven from exposing through your topcoat. from a structural point of view.

NOTE:
Power Play sports boats. Every single one of them looks like a web along the hull.
One OUTSTANDING boat. 100k just for the hull. no csm at ALL!

It should read "layer of CSM."

Chopped Strand Mat.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

Actually, like I said before, C/F laminates tend to shatter when they fail, glass laminates don't.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

Power play uses the ideal layup of epoxy and all woven and carbon fiber.
They SPRAY the epoxy on it so that they can lay it up as dry as possible allowing full performance of the composite fibers. Little glue, high tech fibers, no chopped anything.

My bad, thought you were referring to something else.
Chopped strand mat is a filler. has no real use other than to prevent your woven from exposing through your topcoat. from a structural point of view.

NOTE:
Power Play sports boats. Every single one of them looks like a web along the hull.
One OUTSTANDING boat. 100k just for the hull. no csm at ALL!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

Chopped strand mat is a filler. has no real use other than to prevent your woven from exposing through your topcoat. from a structural point of view.

If this is what you believe, then you don't understand how it works in a polyester laminate, preventing print through is only one of the things it does.

So why did you say to use 8 layers of CSM over the C/F and then a roving if all CSM is is a filler?

Making a boat with no CSM can be done fairly easily, you just need to choose the correct products and then use them in the correct way. Hand laminating with C/F and mat like you described is not the correct way though.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

Power play uses the ideal layup of epoxy and all woven and carbon fiber.
They SPRAY the epoxy on it so that they can lay it up as dry as possible allowing full performance of the composite fibers. Little glue, high tech fibers, no chopped anything.

Why are you bringing up custom built epoxy boats, there is no need for CSM when using epoxy and almost everyone on this forum understands that.

Please get back to explaining your laminate schedule.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

once you have a layer or two of carbon fiber on there, your golden. I have cheated with kitty hair after that. (this is a very far stretch to the other end of the spectrum though).

Composite materials are pretty simple when you look at them. It used to be the brute force 'more glass, more resin, more strong, grunt grunt'.
Thats not the intended use from the manufacture.
Your strength is in your glass. Carbon fiber and kevlar are upgrades to fiberglass. Your glue is your glue. You want little glue and strong fibers for maximum performance of the product.

If this is what you believe, then you don't understand how it works in a polyester laminate, preventing print through is only one of the things it does.

So why did you say to use 8 layers of CSM over the C/F and then a roving if all CSM is is a filler?

Making a boat with no CSM can be done fairly easily, you just need to choose the correct products and then use them in the correct way. Hand laminating with C/F and mat like you described is not the correct way though.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

Mat is just a filler and a cheat at the production level. Woven does far more work then mat could even pretend to. a rope vs a web and that web has more brittle glue in it, because it becomes like cotton in the resin.
Common sense should kick in on that one.
Remember glue/resin is brittle, even epoxy. the last thing you want is a sponge!

once you have a layer or two of carbon fiber on there, your golden. I have cheated with kitty hair after that. (this is a very far stretch to the other end of the spectrum though).

Composite materials are pretty simple when you look at them. It used to be the brute force 'more glass, more resin, more strong, grunt grunt'.
Thats not the intended use from the manufacture.
Your strength is in your glass. Carbon fiber and kevlar are upgrades to fiberglass. Your glue is your glue. You want little glue and strong fibers for maximum performance of the product.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

once you have a layer or two of carbon fiber on there, your golden. I have cheated with kitty hair after that. (this is a very far stretch to the other end of the spectrum though).

Composite materials are pretty simple when you look at them. It used to be the brute force 'more glass, more resin, more strong, grunt grunt'.
Thats not the intended use from the manufacture.
Your strength is in your glass. Carbon fiber and kevlar are upgrades to fiberglass. Your glue is your glue. You want little glue and strong fibers for maximum performance of the product.

You?re still rambling with generalities and using buzz words, most of them in the wrong way.

I?ll be back tomorrow if you want to get specific.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

I am going to safely assume that you have never worked with carbon fibor before.
because if you had ever put the stuff in your hands or tried to cut it. You would fully understand how far off base you are.
Glass shatters, carbon fiber is a polymer and does not shatter. In it pure state it can withstand impacts exceeding 36,000 psi where at that point it pretty much denigrates. Glue shatters, glass shatters but carbon fiber and kevlar require a buttload of force that is outside of your capabilities (we're working with C4 at this point here dude, trust me) in order to "break it".
The GLUE breaks FAR before kevlar and carbon fiber break.....

Actually, like I said before, C/F laminates tend to shatter when they fail, glass laminates don't.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

I lied, I'm still here.

Look into it, C/F laminates tend to shatter when they fail, its like tool steel, very hard and stiff, but doesn't like bending. Now you can get around that by engineering the part correctly and using the right epoxy, but just throwing C/F into a laminate does not make it shatter proof.

C/F laminates can be used as springs, but again, they can be fragile when compared to glass, much, much lighter though.

Read the link you posted about C/F, I quoted from it.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

But look at the date on it!
Chemical companies have chemist for a reason.
and one knucklehead scientist is going to boast his invention over another but some basic principles still apply here. Fiberglass is fibrous glass, glass. Really fancy glass, but still glass by nature. Carbon fiber is a polymer. if the resin splits the carbon fiber, its going to destroy the glass....

I lied, I'm still here.

Look into it, C/F laminates tend to shatter when they fail, its like tool steel, very hard and stiff, but doesn't like bending. Now you can get around that by engineering the part correctly and using the right epoxy, but just throwing C/F into a laminate does not make it shatter proof.

C/F laminates can be used as springs, but again, they can be fragile when compared to glass, much, much lighter though.

Read the link you posted about C/F, I quoted from it.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

But look at the date on it!
Chemical companies have chemist for a reason.
and one knucklehead scientist is going to boast his invention over another but some basic principles still apply here. Fiberglass is fibrous glass, glass. Really fancy glass, but still glass by nature. Carbon fiber is a polymer. if the resin splits the carbon fiber, its going to destroy the glass....

?????

 

[jasoutside]

Re: will pl work for transom

Um guys, little late at this point but, spose ya might want to start a new thread or something? Or get some sleep? Or have a cup of coffee? Cheers!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

Um guys, little late at this point but, spose ya might want to start a new thread or something? Or get some sleep? Or have a cup of coffee? Cheers!

Probably the most intelligent thing said in the last couple of hours.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

I would also put my money on application error/user error or an old flaw in the chemistry. Something weird with that because a huge market for the carbon fiber industry is laminates. The only flaw with carbon fiber that I know of is that it is a pain in the butt to work with which is why you hide it deep.

But look at the date on it!
Chemical companies have chemist for a reason.
and one knucklehead scientist is going to boast his invention over another but some basic principles still apply here. Fiberglass is fibrous glass, glass. Really fancy glass, but still glass by nature. Carbon fiber is a polymer. if the resin splits the carbon fiber, its going to destroy the glass....

 

[ondarvr]

Re: will pl work for transom

C/F is a great product and is used in high end composites everyday, but just throwing a couple of layers into a polyester laminate doesn't create a high strength low weight part.

Without doing the math I would say the laminate you suggested is heavier and weaker than what a glass only (no C/F) laminate would be when using them (types of glass) in the correct way for this application.


If you want to incorporate C/F, Kevlar and other high end fibers into a layup that's great, but they need to be used correctly. That typically means using epoxy, plus using the correct grade of C/F in the correct weight and style (type of weave or stitched and weight), then having them in the correct place in the schedule, plus the fibers need to be oriented in the correct direction.

 

[bcddd214]

Re: will pl work for transom

Um guys, little late at this point but, spose ya might want to start a new thread or something? Or get some sleep? Or have a cup of coffee? Cheers!

Cheers!