Need Help on Deck Resin / Glassing Process

[ERock82]

I have just purchased all of my fiberglass supplies and need a refresher on the exact process:

Questions I have:

1.) For the bottom of the deck: Does the resin go on first or the glass? Also, which resin (the waxed or unwaxed)?

2.) Can someone explain the process for both sides: Like, what resin goes on when and the order of things. Looking for 1 layer 1.5 oz csm on bottom and 2 layers on top with waxed final resin.

I bought 1 gallon of waxed and 2 gallons of unwaxed. I was thinking it would just be 1 coat of waxed for the last layer on the top of the deck. Not sure.

3.) Can I just put 1 layer of waxed on the bottom and not glass it?

Basically I need to do a deck with seat bases. Total area is approx 30sq ft per side. I only assumed it would be a total of 3 coats of wax (1 unwaxed on bottom, 1 unwaxed on top and 1 waxed top). I may have messed up on this though. Bought 95sq ft of csm.

If I can avoid glassing the bottom I should have plenty. Any help would be great. Thanks!

 

[jbcurt00]

Never use poly resin w/out glass, it's a waste of resin materials, IMO

WOG's got a good breakdown for the pending work:
Fabricating Decks, Stringers, and Transoms

IMO, waxed resin should only be used for the LAST layup of glass, unless you do multiple layers all at once. For the reasons I mentioned in your other Topic

 

[ondarvr]

Too late, but, never ever buy resin or gel coat with wax in it, buy the wax solution separately and add it as needed.

Never use polyester resin without glass.

Always pre-coat the wood with resin and at least let it gel prior to doing any glass work.

 

[Woodonglass]

What resin did you get? Hopefully same mfg. ondarvr is correct about adding your own wax. The pre-mixed stuff is not all that reliable.

 

[ERock82]

Thanks for the replies. I totally remember now about having to glass with poly. I was all ready to check out at www.fiberglasssite.com and saw that shipping was $91 for a $180 order!!! I had ordered poly that had wax separately on that site. I ended up going to Jamestown Distributors and they just had the premixed. Shipping, however was $5.

So here is what I think the process should be: Please tell me if I'm correct.

1.) Apply thin layer "non waxed" to bottom side and edges. Let dry.
2.) Apply 1 layer 1.5 oz CSM to bottom side.
3.) Apply thicker final layer of "Waxed" to bottom side. DONE with bottom.

4.) Attach deck to stringers
5.) Apply thin layer "non-waxed" to top. Let dry.
6.) Apply 1 layer of 1.5 oz CSM to top
7.) Apply thicker layer "non-waxed" to saturate CSM. Don't have to let dry??? or do???
8.) Apply 2nd layer CSM
9.) Apply thick layer "Waxed" and DONE

So this would be a total of:

3 coats of non-waxed and 2 coats of waxed.
3 layers of 1.5 oz CSM

Please let me know about the drying between each layer and if this sequence is correct.

ALSO, does 1708 come in before the 1st later of glass on the top??.and does 1708 use waxed or non waxed (assume waxed since it's the only layer?)

ALSO, is "peanut butter" made with waxed or non-waxed?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Woodonglass]

Thanks for the replies. I totally remember now about having to glass with poly. I was all ready to check out at www.fiberglasssite.com and saw that shipping was $91 for a $180 order!!! I had ordered poly that had wax separately on that site. I ended up going to Jamestown Distributors and they just had the premixed. Shipping, however was $5.

So here is what I think the process should be: Please tell me if I'm correct.

1.) Apply thin layer "non waxed" to bottom side and edges. Let dry. You actually want a heavy coat of resin and mix a low ratio (1%) of MEKP to it will take a while for it the harden. This give is time to soak in and seal the wood. Pay close attention to the edges.
2.) Apply 1 layer 1.5 oz CSM to bottom side. Do this Just as soon as the 1st coat of resin starts to get Tacky. Apply another fresh coat of resin and lay the CSM on it and then pour additional resin on top and use a short nap 4" roller to roll it out. Don't OVER roll it. Once it goes Clear stop rolling.
3.) Apply thicker final layer of "Waxed" to bottom side. DONE with bottom. No Wax needed on bottom. You're done.

4.) Attach deck to stringers Pre-Drill your holes and then coat the holes and the screws with resin. You can use regular Deck screws
5.) Apply thin layer "non-waxed" to top. Let dry. Again, layon a heavy coat mixed low ratio and let it soak.
6.) Apply 1 layer of 1.5 oz CSM to top Same as above
7.) Apply thicker layer "non-waxed" to saturate CSM. Don't have to let dry??? or do??? Nope still use Un-Waxed. Doesn't have to be heavy. Roll it on with the roller and then lay down the CSM. Pour more on top and roll it out.
8.) Apply 2nd layer CSM Same as above
9.) Apply thick layer "Waxed" and DONE Now you use the Waxed Poly. Pour it on and roll it out. All the wax actually does is prohibit the air from getting to the resin and this allows it to totally cure and become Non-Tacky. It also aids a bit in waterproofing qualities.

So this would be a total of:

3 coats of non-waxed and 2 coats of waxed.
3 layers of 1.5 oz CSM

Please let me know about the drying between each layer and if this sequence is correct.

ALSO, does 1708 come in before the 1st later of glass on the top??.and does 1708 use waxed or non waxed (assume waxed since it's the only layer?)

ALSO, is "peanut butter" made with waxed or non-waxed?

Thanks in advance.

See comments in Blue above

Your layup will be 1 Layer of CSM on Bottom using Only unwaxed resin
2 layers of CSM on top using unwaxed resin until the last Top Coat of resin on the Last Layer of CSM.
If you looked at and read the link jbcurt00 provided it has a drawing that shows you how the layers go down. the 1708 is only required as tabbing to the hull. A 6-8" strip along the edged between the hull and the deck is all that's needed. It goes down before or after the first layer of CSM doesn't really matter. You can put a full layer of 1708 down if you want but IMHO not needed.

Here's how you make Peanut Butter.

In the video he talks about using an electric mixer to mix with. I don't advise that because it will introduce air bubbles into your mix and that is NOT good. He also states you can use wood flour and or wheat flour, sawdust etc.. as thickeners. Again I don't advise that with Polyester resin since poly does allow some moisture to pass thru it and if you have wood products as a filler agent this is a bad thing. Cabosil will not absorb water and there for using it as your filler will make everything much more waterproof. Using the exact forumula he presents in the video (using a bit less fibers) will yield a Great Peanut Butter Mixture for doing fillets and filling gaps. When you're just making "Glue" you don't need the fibers. You can use em if you want but actually not needed.

Good Luck!!!

 

[ERock82]

Thanks Woodonglass!

Can I use the waxed in place of non-waxed if I run out of the non? I may have some left over and that stuff is expensive.

Also, I am worried I messed up on the order. Here is what I bought for tabbing:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...familyName=Fiberglass+Cloth+-+17+oz+Biaxial+#

One of the reviewers says it worked good for tabbing but I realize that there is another product that mentions tabbing in the description. None of them actually had 1708 on product titles from JD.

 

[ERock82]

Try this if that doesn't work:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...familyName=Fiberglass+Cloth+-+17+oz+Biaxial+#


Here is the decription:

"The standard 17 oz double Bias fiberglass cloth by Vectorply is an E-BX 1700-10 (+/-45deg) with a total weight of 17.92 oz/sq.yd (608 g/sq.yd). This high quality biaxial fiberglass cloth provides more strength than standard 12 oz double bias cloth, but with some added weight. The cloth helps to bulk up on strength without requiring multiple layers, and it impregnates easily. The weave is retained by a thin polyester stitching which holds the perpendicular 45 deg tows in place without affecting structural integrity.
Experience fantastic results while used during wet lay-up, vacuum bagging, or infusion. The 50" wide cloth is sold by the yard or roll (125 yd)."

 

[Woodonglass]

That will work but...You'll need to put the CSM down first since this product does not have the CSM Sewn to the back. You can used the Waxed stuff as long as you do wet on wet laminations. IF you have more of it then Use it on the bottom and as soon as you coat the wood with a thick coat go ahead and put down the CSM. and then pour and roll out the rest. That way it'll cure with no issues. The problem with waxed resin is, if you let the previous coat cure the waxed surface prevents the next layer from adhereing properly. You have to sand and wash it down with Acetone and even then it doesn't give the best bond. As long as it's still wet when the next layer goes down then your good to go.

 

[ERock82]

Thanks man. You've been a great help.

I've read that you should lay the 1.5 oz over the sides of the deck a little. So, if I just lay the 1.5 oz 6 inches over the sides, I should be good to tab with that stuff as normal?

Do you think it will become a big inconvenience to the point that it would be easier to call the company and try to change the order?

 

[Woodonglass]

Not really Once you have the Deck Hull Joint filled and smoothed it will be easy to run the CSM up the sides of the hull. There's no problem doing that. Then the 17oz fabric won't have any issues adhering well just like the 1708. Just make sure everything is sanded and smooth and you'll be fine. If it hasn't shipped and you want to try then OK, but really no need.

 

[ERock82]

I will probably be fiberglassing this coming weekend and have a few more questions:

1.) When screwing down/assembling new seat bases, do I do this after the deck by itself has been fully fiberglassed?…or… Do I install before laying any resin down? ….or…Do I resin the seat base parts separately, then install on resined only deck?

(I will have a 2 inch foam hole on the deck right under the seat base, so I at least will have to pour the foam in before placing on the seat base top)


2.) Do I drill holes in deck before resin/fiberglass on bottom or after? (I marked the screw holes from the bottom side by using a chalk line to get the center of the stringers). Will I be able to see these marks clearly if I wait till I have placed 1 layer of CSM on? (I'm thinking to drill anyway so I at least can see these holes from the top, then can redrill through fiberglassed over bottom.)

3.) Do I permanently screw down deck with screws/epoxy before foaming?

4.) What kind of problems can I run into with the foam? I have placed (2) 2 inch foam holes on both sides of the boat. They are in the same open area but 4 feet apart. Should I fill just 1 hole from each side and see if it completely fills this 4-5 feet long area? How long do I wait to know if it fills it? Also, I placed these holes in the deeper areas.

5.) If for some reason I run out of CSM, can I save resins that are still in container while I wait for more CSM to come in the mail? Also, if I realize I may run out, what I would like is to get the first layer of CSM on the top of the deck completely done and stop there. Are there any problems associated with this? I realize the last unwaxed layer of resin will tack up. Will I be messed up when I come back days later to lay down that 2nd layer?

6.) Are there any areas that I could skip laying down CSM? (Such as, bottoms of seat base toppers (resin only), inside sides of seat base sides (resin only). Not only will it save material, BUT I am concerned fiberglassing may make it hard to lay flush on base frame (seat top bottoms that is).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Woodonglass]

I will probably be fiberglassing this coming weekend and have a few more questions:

1.) When screwing down/assembling new seat bases, do I do this after the deck by itself has been fully fiberglassed??or? Do I install before laying any resin down? ?.or?Do I resin the seat base parts separately, then install on resined only deck? What kind of bases are you using. Depending on the base types some go down first, others after.

(I will have a 2 inch foam hole on the deck right under the seat base, so I at least will have to pour the foam in before placing on the seat base top) Yup


2.) Do I drill holes in deck before resin/fiberglass on bottom or after? (I marked the screw holes from the bottom side by using a chalk line to get the center of the stringers). Will I be able to see these marks clearly if I wait till I have placed 1 layer of CSM on? (I'm thinking to drill anyway so I at least can see these holes from the top, then can redrill through fiberglassed over bottom.) Put down the resin sealing coat on the bottom side and apply the CSM Flip it over and Predrill your Holes and screw the deck down. DO NOT use any resin yet. Leave it all dry. Cut your holes for the Foam.

3.) Do I permanently screw down deck with screws/epoxy before foaming? NO!!! Just screw it down After the foam is in you will use PB to put the wood plugs back in the holes and then you will remove the screws fill the holes will resin, coat the screws with resin and screw it back down. Coat the deck with resin and once it tacks up start putting down more resin and applying the first layer of CSM.

4.) What kind of problems can I run into with the foam? I have placed (2) 2 inch foam holes on both sides of the boat. They are in the same open area but 4 feet apart. Should I fill just 1 hole from each side and see if it completely fills this 4-5 feet long area? How long do I wait to know if it fills it? Also, I placed these holes in the deeper areas. You need to do your calculations so you will know how much foam you need to mix to fill the cubic feet in each pour area. You then mix that amount and quickly pour it into one opening and if possible have the boat tiltied a bit towards the other opening so the foam will flow towards it. Depending on the temps and humidity and your calculations the foam should expand and fill the cavity and a small amount should protrude thru both of the drilled holes. If you get carried away and put WAY to much in you can actually pop the deck off the stringers suffering a Blow Out!!! MAKE SURE your calculations are correct!!!!!!

5.) If for some reason I run out of CSM, can I save resins that are still in container while I wait for more CSM to come in the mail? I'd recommend pouring resin that has NOT had hardener/catalyst mixed into it, back into the original sealed container. Also, if I realize I may run out, what I would like is to get the first layer of CSM on the top of the deck completely done and stop there. Are there any problems associated with this? I realize the last unwaxed layer of resin will tack up. Will I be messed up when I come back days later to lay down that 2nd layer? As long as it's within a couple of days and it's still a bit tacky and your shop is not a Dust Magnet, then you should be good to go. If you feel that contaminants may have gotten on the resin, you should prolly wipe it down with Acetone prior to the next layup.

6.) Are there any areas that I could skip laying down CSM? (Such as, bottoms of seat base toppers (resin only), inside sides of seat base sides (resin only). Not only will it save material, BUT I am concerned fiberglassing may make it hard to lay flush on base frame (seat top bottoms that is). When using Poly you MUST ALWAYS use CSM. The resin will harden and Crack open when it cures without the CSM to Bind it together.

Thanks in advance!

My recommendations are above in Blue!! I really think you should have kept this with your other post. It gets confusing going back a forth between the two. You referenced your seat bases and the other thread gives the detail about them. Do NOT install them until After the deck has been install and glassed in. That's how I'd recommend doing it.

 

[ERock82]

Thanks man, you've been a great help.

I started this thread bc I thought the other one was dying out. I figure eventually people will ignore it when it gets to be so old.

I think I understand all of your responses. A couple of things:

1.) What happens if it is more than a couple of days before continuing to next layer?(like 5 or 6)
(If I run out, I will have to find a local place (don't know any) or order online again (also have to wait till weekend bc of work).

2.) As far as the bottoms of the seat base tops go, I guess I should just sand down the surface once glassed so it will lay flush. That was my main concern. I already have everything pre-cut and it was measured and fit with dry plywood and surfaces. Hope this isn't an issue.

3.) I haven't cut the foam holes yet, just marked them. Should I just tilt the trailer back (maybe put the jack 6 inches up on block of wood) and cut only 1 hole on each side (upper ones closest to bow)?
(I will do my best to measure exact sq. feet there but it is a curved bottom so it will be tricky). I will look online for a way to calculate that.

Also, do you know any popular chain stores that I could get poly resin and or fiberglass at on a Sat or Sunday afternoon?

Thanks.

 

[Woodonglass]

You don't want to use resin from the Big Box stores. It'll have wax in it. You should buy 5 gallons of resin at a time. It'll last 4-5 months with no problems unless it gets really Hot in the summer and you store it in a hot humid place. Once unwaxed resin sets for more than a couple of days it will start to lose it's tackiness. It's air inhibited cured. That means it requires air to be blocked from the surface for it to fully cure. That's what the wax does. It floats to the top and seals the surface and blocks the air so the resin will fully cure. You can put a plastic sheet over it and it will cure too. Sooooo the longer it sits the more it cures and the less tacky it becomes AND the more contaminants that get on it which causes poor adhesion for the next layer. It's always best to lay the next layer down as soon as possible. Both chemically and mechanically speaking. Not sure I understand what you mean about the seat bases laying flush. If your deck is flat and level the seat bases should fit flush after the deck is glassed in. For the foaming you'll cut both holes, tilt the bow up a bit pour the foam in the hole closest to the bow and let It flow back towards the stern while it expands. It happens pretty darn quick. You don't have to tilt it a bunch. 4-6 " is plenty. Your cubic ft. calculations are CRITICAL!!! If you post your length, width and Height dimensions of the areas to be filled with foam I'll help you with those calculations if you want me to.

 

[ERock82]

I've got all of my supplies and am ready to fiberglass this deck this weekend (weather permitting).

I have a few concerns and am trying to get a good time estimate.

So, I live in an apartment which is where I store my boat. The area in my apartment where I keep it is the best area for using poly resin that there is, as it is the furthest away from other buildings and people. I have nothing in front or back of my boat and about 100+ feet on either side before there is the sides of a building. My main concern is people coming to and from their cars. I don't want to expose them to harmful chemicals and also am worried they may call the leasing office to complain. The apartment office is closed Sundays so I think I would be safe from complaints that day but if I start on a Saturday, I am worried about getting shut down from management.

So, ?I am trying to see if this can be done by just myself on 1 full day (about 7-8hrs of sunlight). That includes a couple of breaks.

Here is a breakdown of what has to be done:

1.) Set up
2.) First layer of resin on BTM of deck (+sides) and Bulk Head.
3.) Wait for that to get tacky
4.) Layer of CSM on both of these
5.) Final layer of resin on BTM of deck and second layer on BH
6.) While waiting for BTM to dry I will put 2nd layer of CSM on BH and final resin layer
7.) Wait to dry
8.) Install BH
9.) Fill gaps around bulkhead to string with epoxy
10.) Small strips of CSM around edges of BH with resin
11.) Wait to get tacky
12.) Tab BH and final BH resin
13.) Install gas tank (I need to place rubber pieces along edges to secure tightly)
14.) Place deck on
15.) Temporarily secure deck down with screws
16.) Mix up pre-calculated foam
17.) Tilt trailer up and pour foam in both sides. Wait for it to do it's thing.
18.) Mix up Peanut Butter
19.) Trim off any excess and use Peanut butter to place cut hole tops back on
20.) Permanently fasten deck with screws and epoxy
21.) Peanut butter all deck gaps and edges
22.) Lay down 1st layer of CSM on deck and resin
22.) 2nd layer and final resin
23.) Tab sides and resin


Could seat bases wait till the next weekend???

If not then I do seat bases.

Now that I think about it, this seems crazy for just me to do in 8 hrs!!!

There is a possibility I could call someone I know that has a house with an acre yard but it is a little uncomfortable doing so. I will ask if it makes the most sense. I don't have any other options and am determined to finish the deck.

So, ??any advice about a timeframe on this job?

Can seat bases wait for 2nd weekend?

Any advice on working Sat and Sun and preventing apartment from shutting me down if that happens?

Is there a way to split this job up where I can do (2) Sundays in a row but not ruin or waste anything?

Is there a way I can work into the night on Sunday? (I have a head lamp and could set up a work lamp probably)

Would this smell even be that bad with little to no wind and 100 feet from buildings?

Should I just chance doing Sat and Sun if I can't go to the other property?

Thanks in advance!


***Update to post***

As I sat here thinking about all of this, I am predicting 20-30hrs which means I will need to split this up over 4-6 days which will be only Sat or Suns.

I'm thinking day 1 will just be the bulkhead glassing and gas tank install. I won't even be touching the deck. I will have to mix out smaller portions of what I need on particular days.

This may further complicate working in the apartment, as residents will get to smell this 4 to 6 different days. Each day will require some amount of poly.

 

[Woodonglass]

Have you done the grinding down to fresh glass etc.???

 

[ERock82]

Yeah, it's all ready to go. So, any ideas on my post?

 

[JASinIL2006]

People are going to smell it, but I wouldn't think it will be that strong 100' away... I guess it partly depends on how persnickety your neighbors are. Obviously, the part that will generate the most odor is when you're covering large surfaces, so you might try hoping for a mild breeze on those days... One strategy might be to glass the undersides of the deck one day and see if anyone notices/comments. If not, full steam ahead!

One thing to consider: in the last three steps, you describe covering the deck (twice) in CSM and then tabbing. You'll get a much smoother appearance to your deck if you tab first, then cover the deck with CSM, extending the CSM up on the hull. If you're using a fabric for tabbing that doesn't have CSM, you will want a layer of CSM down first to aid adhesion, but I would still do the deck-cover layers as one piece, running up the hull farther with each layer.

One thing I found: when putting down the first layer of CSM on bare wood, you need to really let a first coat of resin soak in before you lay down the CSM and pour resin on top. If you don't let the resin soak in (one of the reasons it's often suggested to mix that first resin with a lower % of MEKP for a slower kick), you'll get all kinds of little bubbles in the glass that are pretty much impossible to get out.

One other question, just out of my curiosity. Why are you temporarily screwing down the deck before you foam? Maybe I'm forgetting something, but that seems to add extra work. (I also figured the foam adhering to the hull, stringers and deck probably added strength, too.) Just curious.

Good luck!

jim

 

[Woodonglass]

It is what it is. All that can happen is they'll shut you down. Pre-coating the wood IS a necessity. Do that first and see what happens. If no one complains then lay down the CSM on the bottom of the deck and let it cure. and then install the deck. IMHO precoating the bottom of the deck using 1% MEKP and then Laying the CSM and letting it cure and then installing it with screws. and then mixing PB and filling the gap around the edges and then tabbing it to the sides of the hull will be a Good 1st days work. Tabbing with 1708 and then cutting holes and mixing and pouring the foam, and gluing the plugs back in and precoating the top of the deck on the second day will be a good days work. Laying a full layer of CSM over the finished deck on the third day will finish it up.