1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

[Fed]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

I'd still give it a short run without water, drop the leg to save the pump. I know, I know, but I've got nothing else atm.
Either way mate we're still here for you.

 

[Will Bark]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

I'm serious, can't do it this week but sometime next week if you are free.PM me with a phone # and we'll see if we can set a day and time; probably Tuesday would be the best for me all day long. I don't see how it could be the carb with all the work you've done on it and the rest of the motor but stranger things have happened; it will be interesting to see.

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

I'll see what I can work out with the other half. Thanks man! I'll bring some pics of the bayou & empty lots too.

 

[OptsyEagle]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

That's too bad Scanman. Next to pulling the miners out of the ground in Chile, your motor working was next on my wish list.

I would take a close look at the timing plate under the magneto the next time you have the flywheel off. The machinist had a write up about a loose timing plate causing problems:
---------------------------
Timing Plate loose: This can be an item that may be overlooked, but it can be critical. Under the flywheel is what I call the timing plate assembly, this is essentially the whole charge coil/ignition module under the flywheel. It rotates when you twist the throttle twist grip. If the "Ignition plate to support bearing" (#47 ) or part #322435, becomes worn or warped, it will then be loose, this will allow the whole timing plate to rotate under the flywheel by the force of the flywheel magnets rotating around the coils mounted on the plate. This will cause the throttle timing to possibly change enough to create a non-starting motor. This support bearing puts tension on the inside of the timing plate dia. What usually happens is that someone oils everything up & this being one that gets a shot. It needs FRICTION not lubrication. You may be able to clean it up, then warm it in a micro wave & expand the ends to make it a larger dia.

This "bearing" is a fiber ring 5" in diameter, 3/16" thick & 1/4" wide. It is has a groove around in the inside to fit over the plate, & split in the middle like a set of piston ring to allow installation. If it is collapsed, meaning it has both ends almost together, it will not be able to put enough pressure on the timing plate. You may be able to put it in a micro-wave for a few seconds to soften it up, allowing you to spread it back out & be reusable. When installed it acts as a bushing excreting circular friction between upper plate & the block. The thickness up & down is not where the tension is put between the two but the outer circumference pressure.

There are 4 parts that constitute that this timing plate/stator assembly. First there is reference #41 or "timing plate retainer & link", next #46 is the "support plate" onto which is attached #47 bearing, ignition plate support" which is a plastic type large ring with a groove in the center. The outer edges of this plate #46 accepts #47 bearing. This bearing is made larger in diameter & has angled ends to be compressed & ride inside the #39 "timing plate & sleeve" unit that the stator is attached to. However it will not just slide on.

You will have to make a simple small wire staple that will hold the 2 ends in place while you slide #39 down over this #47 bearing. The best I have found is to place the bearing so the joint is pointing straight to the rear. Slide the timing plate assembly down & usually the staple will fall out, if not you can reach in with an ice pick & dislodge it from the bearing. Now it will fall on top of the block, so you can retrieve it with a small magnet. The red arrow in the photo below is pointing to the staple. The other bearing shown below is the position the normal bearing is extended. One is brown while the other is black, no difference, just possibly a different year."

http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/Johnson_9.9_troubleshooting.htm

---------------------------

After that I am starting to think that it must be something internal like your piston rings. I hope not, but everything else is pretty much new.

 

[AlTn]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

Scan...if you're not completely fed up at this point, here's something lame to try... remove the fuel pump and cover the pulse opening with some duct tape...reattach the fuel pump....pump the bulb to fill the carb bowl and start the motor...if it runs as it should, use the primer bulb to keep the carb bowl full and see if this has "cured" it...the "logic" behind this is if the rebuild on the fp was faulty, maybe it's losing enough vacuum to cause it to suck in unmeterd air into the crankcase and leaning the mixture...if it doesn't do anything....wellllllllll...it didn't take long and you didn't have to remove the carb or fw....btw, I tried that fp rebuild as well, didn't work worth a flip....motor ran a lot like yours....new fp cured it

 

[Fed]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

While you're trying things give it a go with double oil in the gas if you're not already doing that.
I did a little Googling and it seems that 70psi is near the edge.
Did you hone the bores?

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

OptsyEagle, now that you've finally got those poor miners outta the ground, do ya think you could focus on this motor for a minute, please! I hope this doesn't take you quite as long as the miners did! I think I'll go get one of those bearings today. They're cheap & even though mine seems ok, it's worth a try.

AlTn, are you referrin to the small hole in the back of the pump? That sounds like something easy to try. I'll let ya'll know this evening if that works or not.

Fed, I ran double oil for the first 3.5 hours or so, & got tired of fouling plugs. I have gradually thinned it out over time to keep it firing, but I 'm sure it's still a bit heavily mixed. I had a machine shop hone the bores. The guy said that I could leave it alone & go with standard rings & be fine. I'm startin to think, because of the low compression numbers, that I shoulda gone ahead to a +0.10 bore & rings. IF I'm forced to tear it back down, I'll definately go that way! Fed, what would I learn by runnin it without water like that?
Thanks again ya'll!

 

[AlTn]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

no Scan...the actual pulse hole in the block itself...reattaching the pump just to hold it in place...btw, if any fuel comes out that hole in the back of the pump when you pump the primer bulb...you know you got problems...I'm suggesting this as a way to take the pump out of the equation...if the pump is leaking air into the crankcase, the gravity feed with the fp attached is ineffective...btdt..

 

[Fed]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

Thinking out loud here scanman.
I keep coming back to water putting the spark out.

What's different from when you start it to 30 seconds down track?
You have water pressure in the block which is why I asked about running it dry.

You have some accumulated heat and your compression appears to get lower as it gets hotter which is why I asked about honing & double oil.

I did read on a motorcycle forum the compression numbers could get better with some running but you've already got some hours on it so that's out.

How about a hot & cold test with a good comp tested that fits properly? That should be done before you pull it apart.

I woke up at 2.00 AM this morning, had a nightmare about an outboard motor.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

The motor wasn't running when the fuel was running out of the line from the pump. I've personally rebuilt the powerhead, carb, fuel pump, replaced coils, condensers & points. The only old part left in this motor is the driver & I have tested the spark to jump a 3/8" gap. This has to be something fairly simple, right?

If after a hundred and fourty eight or so posts, you haven't been able to straighten that little engine out, you should have a experienced mechanic in your area take a look at it up close and get a accurate estimate of what's wrong with it.... then relay that info to us if his info doesn't help you. I've read thru the three pages and it appears that all areas have been covered. I hesitate to enter any suggestions as I don't see anything that hasn't been covered.

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

Thanks Joe Reeves, after all we've tried (the iboats community) it's about to come to that. The only reason I haven't done so already is the $85.00 per hour for labor. I've been outta work a long time & have to spend a little at a time. The shops want it all at once. I would also be proud to learn something, & share it with ya'll. I have tools & skills & the most frustrating thing is that this little motor has been beating me! I'm a competant mechanic even though I don't do it for a living. I've built & rebuilt several car engines & a few lawn mowers. I'll admit this is my first outboard overhaul, but, the principles are the same & this is a simple engine, compared to most. It's hard to pay someone that rate to find my oversight & as long as iboats folks will hang with me I'll keep tryin. Everyone's been great & I GREATLY appreciate your time to re-read this post in it's entirety. I'll do that again. I'm havin bad dreams about this engine too! I guess there's a bit of pride to it now. That's probably not a good attitude to have, if you need to save money, but I really want to be the one to find my own mistake. I've been very honest in these posts & I've also ran out to try everything that everyone has suggested as soon as possible. I do agree that we should've found the problem by now. My opinion is that I need to start over with a good compression tester. all the electrical components have been replaced,except the wiring harness itself. I'm leanin toward fuel, but it doesn't run long enough to empty the carb bowl. I remember my dad & I waitin at the boat ramp for this thing to run dry.

AlTn, I tried the fuel pump trick today. It acted a lil different, but still wouldn't idle. Tomorrow I'm gonna tape off that hole & bypass the fuel pump too. I can say that the fuel bubble doesn't go soft after the motor starts & it didn't keep it runnin when I pumped it up. I'm thinkin about buyin a new fuel pump. I tore it down today & everything is ok on the inside but there's some pitting on the metal parts that may be leaking. I did the "blow" test & it passed, but fuel might be able to go where air can't. I don't have much confidence in it. I'll try pumping fuel to it tomorrow & see if the back of it is leaking.

Fed, I'll find a compression tester that fits properly & re-do the tests. If the numbers are good I'll pull the foot & run it dry. I think it's possible you might be onto something, but, then again, I don't really know what to think! BTW, sorry bout your nightmares! sweet dreams, LOL!

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

$85.00 per hour! I retired at the wrong time apparently. I always felt guilty charging $25.00 per hour. I'll throw in a couple thoughts here.

(Carburetor Adjustment - Single S/S Adjustable Needle Valve)
(J. Reeves)

Initial setting is: Slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.

Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

Note 1: As a final double check setting of the slow speed valve(s), if the engine has more than one carburetor, do not attempt to gradually adjust all of the valves/carburetors at the same time. Do one at a time until you hit the above response (die out or spit back), then go on to the next valve/carburetor. It may be necessary to back out "all" of the slow speed adjustable needle valves 1/8 turn before doing this final adjustment due to the fact that one of the valves might be initially set ever so slightly lean.

Note 2: If the engine should be a three (3) cylinder engine with three (3) carburetors, start the adjustment sequence with the center carburetor.

When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

Thousands of parts in my remaining stock. Not able to list them all. Let me know what you need and I'll look it up for you. Visit my eBay auction at:

http://shop.ebay.com/Joe_OMC32/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

(Fuel Pump Diaphragm Test)
(Two Hose Type Only)
(J. Reeves)

Note: This pertains only to the regular Two Hose type fuel pumps.

Leave the hoses attached to the fuel pump. Remove only the two screws that attach the fuel pump to the powerhead. Re-insert those two screws and install a nut to each of them so that the fuel pump is securely clamped together. With the fuel line attached to the engine, pump the primer bulb while observing the pressure/vacuum operating hole on the back side of the fuel pump. Should any fuel leak out that hole, the diaphragm is faulty.

If the diaphragm is faulty, the fuel pump will require rebuilding or replacing. Note that repair kits are not available for all fuel pumps, in which case replacing the pump would be necessary.

Thousands of parts in my remaining stock. Not able to list them all. Let me know what you need and I'll look it up for you. Visit my eBay auction at:

http://shop.ebay.com/Joe_OMC32/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

Thanks Joe Reeves. I'm leaning toward the fuel pump. I'm gonna be visiting Will Bark to swap out things & see if anything helps. I'll post results ASAP.

 

[dazk14]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

A few questions and comments.

Does the compression gauge you are using have a shraeder valve built in ? If the valve is on the plug side of the adapter hose, more tugs will be needed to get up to max..

I'd like to see how the engine responds with throttle. It's difficult to get a bead on where it is just by watching. Rev it , let drop a bit, rev it. Pop it into gear and blow a little water out of your tank. Do the below to give you more rpms that you appear to need to make this work. Even if it's only neutral, this will help.

By adjusting the maximum neutral speed stop on the starboard side as posted below. You loosen the 2 small screws, slide the stop, then tighten.





If you want to run it without the pump connected to the motor, Do as Joe Reeves suggested and also install a 1/4"-20 bolt a couple turns into the block to plug the pulse hole.

Do this ONLY if it is tapped. We don't want to make any metal chips.

When rebuilding the carb, did you verify by carb spray and compressor that the 3(as I recall) tiny drilled idle orifices (visible when the throttle plate is open) are clear. You generally have to get some liquid pushed thru it for it to be visually obvious. If you took the idle circuit welch plug out and blew air and cleaner thru it's small orifices, then you should be fine.

Ensure the idle mixture screw is sealed where it exits the carb body. If it's not sealed well, the idle circuit won't pull well. In a pinch, remove mixture needle, grease down to threads on mixture needle only (not on smooth tip portion of needle) and install, leaving the exit location smoothly smeared.

I'd like to see the idle mixture have more of an effect. Since the motor may be loaded up, we need to get the RPM's up to give it a chance to clear as mentioned above.

The hotter b6HS are a good start.

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

dazk14, I've pulled on the compression tester as many as 10 times per cylinder. The neutral stop is adjusted all the way open & it still only runs a few seconds. It does go to higher rpms when it's cold, & eventually dies anyway. There's no way to throttle it up cause in all the vids I've posted, its always been on the throttle stop. I can blow all the water outta the barrel, & it still won't idle long enough to shift back to neutral. I can rev it up while it's in gear, but as soon as I throttle down, it dies again. It acted this way on the lake when I took it out. If I roll the throttle off to the shift position to change gears, it dies instantly. The pulse hole isn't threaded, but I did put duct tape on it & replace the pump to hold it in place. I think it was pretty well sealed, but it didn't change anything either. I did remove the soft plugs, both large & small, & passed a small bit of wire through all the tiny openings on the fifth carb teardown. I'm confident these are all clear. I can try adding grease to the area of the needle that you suggest, but That bushing, the retainer, I believe, is brand new. I've tried every position of the needle from seated all the way to 10 turns out, 1/4 turn at a time. I think I've built two lbs. of muscle mass in my right arm pulling on this thing! I'm not sure the needle is gonna have much effect if it won't idle. It cranks easily, with no choke, on a cold start. Runs till it gets warm(?) & slowly dies. I've even rebuilt the fuel pump again yesterday. I'll try the grease in the mornin, but I don't think the bushing is exactly "dry" after all this. I personally hope it works! Also I've been through several sets of those plugs cause of the break in oil & still continue to cycle new ones into it. I bet I've got ten sets of 'em.

 

[OptsyEagle]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

I would be careful with that grease. If it makes its way into the jet chamber you could end up with a carb problem that wasn't there before, in my opinion.

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

Thanks for the warning, OptsyEagle. You have a valid point. I think I'll wait till after I try Will Barks carb to do anything else. I'm goin up to his place tomorrow. We're gonna swap the fuel pump first & then the carb. Hopefully we'll find somethin!

 

[OptsyEagle]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

If he has a compression tester, stick that thing in there as well and get some more readings. I fear that it is an internal problem, since just about everything else has been addressed.

 

[Will Bark]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

I do have a compression guage; hopefully we will find something cause I know scanman is about sick of this whole thing when it's got to be something simple; hopefully not something that would cause him to have to tear the whole thing apart again. I'm leaning to fuel pump or an as yet undected air leak in fuel delivery before the carb; but time will tell. I'm not a mechanic but sometimes a second set of eyes can be helpful. See you tomorrow scanman!

 

[scanman]

Re: 1975 evinrude 9.9 fuel pump prob?

JEEZ! I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG, OPTSY! I'm not sure what to think any more! At this point I really don't care what the problem is, as long as we can find it! Will Bark, I'm lookin forward to it!

I'm goin out now to put a new fuel pump in the ole' Ted Williams!