1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer! Fixed!

[Eastmanscreek]

Hey All:

I am new to iBoats but have a difficult problem that someone out there may be able to help me with.

Just bought a 1996 Montauk 17 with a 1996 Evinrude 90 on the back. Before I ran it, I replaced the tank with a Moller plastic tank, cleaned all the fuel lines and fuel water sep, and had all the carbs rebuilt. Here is the problem- after running great for an hour I brought the boat down to idle and it quit. Would turn over but not fire up for 30 minutes, then finally cranked; and surged and shut off intermittently all the way back to the dock for thirty minutes and would not hold an idle. Brought back to my mechanic and here is what we did:

Compression check- 130 on all cyls
Spark test- good
Ran on shop tank- still same problem (not a boat problem)
Padded (or patted) the carbs and isolated the prob to #1 cyl
(when we padded the #1 carb the engine reved instead of de-rating, all other carbs were normal)
Cleaned #1 carb- still same problem
Swapped #1 and #3 carb and the problem stayed with #1
Swapped #1 and #3 spark and the problem stayed with #1

It is like the engine is starving for fuel on #1 and when you pad or pat the carb the engine increases RPM like you are giving it fuel. I changed mechanics and hope the new guy can figure it out but any and all advice is appreciated and will hopefully save me some money!!! Please, any advice would be great and I hope to get back out on the water and see everyone by this weekend!

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge

FREE case of beer for anyone who can (correctly) diagnose this one today! (Pick up only, sorry cannot mail a case of beer)

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

paid mechanic, or friend mechanic?

I dont see a point in trying to trouble shoot your problem until your mechanic throws in the towel..

unless one of the professional mechincs here recognizes the propblem..

you havent mentioned anything to do with electrical checks or tests...

once you isolated the issue you think to one cylinder and you swapped carbs and the issue stayed...isnt that saying that it isnt fuel related...unless it has something to do with the reed valves

I dont know the term Padded, or Patted...unless you mean ..tapping, or banging the carb...

in that case you could be moving a wire that has a bad connection..as well

have you verified that you get spark?? id check the spark for an intermitten connection while you "Pad" it again.


good luck

bob

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Both my mechanics work at marinas as outboard techs. I have researched this issue online as well as on iboats and cannot seem to find another post/ problem like it.

The first mechanic basically did throw in the towel. He even asked me to do a post because he said he had not really seen an issue like this before without other issues being involved.

We used a spark check (all sparks were good) but did not do ignition or timing.

Both mechanics say it is a fuel issue somewhere, but cannot seem to isolate it.

I am unsure if it is a reed valve because they both say a broken reed valve would show different symptoms than it is showing.

When I say padding or patting the carb, I am trying to say we put a hand or rag over the carb while the engine was running. #2, 3 and 4 all de-rated and cut the engine off. On #1 the engine picked up idle like it was getting fuel.

Spark is good.

Any ideas? Thanks for any and all help!

 

[countvlad]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Both my mechanics work at marinas as outboard techs. I have researched this issue online as well as on iboats and cannot seem to find another post/ problem like it.

The first mechanic basically did throw in the towel. He even asked me to do a post because he said he had not really seen an issue like this before without other issues being involved.

We used a spark check (all sparks were good) but did not do ignition or timing.

Both mechanics say it is a fuel issue somewhere, but cannot seem to isolate it.

I am unsure if it is a reed valve because they both say a broken reed valve would show different symptoms than it is showing.

When I say padding or patting the carb, I am trying to say we put a hand or rag over the carb while the engine was running. #2, 3 and 4 all de-rated and cut the engine off. On #1 the engine picked up idle like it was getting fuel.

Spark is good.

Any ideas? Thanks for any and all help!

ok ... is also confused... when you covered cylinder #2,3 or 4 motor died, but when you covered #1 motor picked up in speed?

your motor shouldn't have died when you either removed the spark or air to one cylinder... usually the motor continues to run with 3 cylinders....

so you got good spark.... when were the carbs last time rebuild? was the timing checked??? what about the fuel pump?.... you might be starving of fuel....

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Correct, when we covered cylinder #2,3 or 4 motor de-rated and stalled, but when we covered #1 motor picked up in speed, like we were giving it fuel.

The motor did not die when we removed the spark.

Good spark.

Carbs were just rebuilt... right before my sea trial when it had problems. We took #1 carb back off, cleaned again, motor did same thing, swapped 1 and 3 and the problem stayed with #1 so we do not think it is a carb issue.

Timing was not checked, or the fuel pump, but all three other cyls seem to be running fine.

It seems like that #1 cyl is starving of fuel or there is an air leak... but why, and where would it be coming from since it is not in the carb, and the pump feeds cyls 1 and 3, 2 and 4. I would believe that if it was coming from the pump or the line that feeds the carb then we would see it in multiple cyls.

Mech says he still thinks its fuel not elec.

I am pulling my hair out on this one.

Thanks for all the help and any more ideas are welcome!

 

[countvlad]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Correct, when we covered cylinder #2,3 or 4 motor de-rated and stalled, but when we covered #1 motor picked up in speed, like we were giving it fuel.

The motor did not die when we removed the spark.

Good spark.

Carbs were just rebuilt... right before my sea trial when it had problems. We took #1 carb back off, cleaned again, motor did same thing, swapped 1 and 3 and the problem stayed with #1 so we do not think it is a carb issue.

Timing was not checked, or the fuel pump, but all three other cyls seem to be running fine.

It seems like that #1 cyl is starving of fuel or there is an air leak... but why, and where would it be coming from since it is not in the carb, and the pump feeds cyls 1 and 3, 2 and 4. I would believe that if it was coming from the pump or the line that feeds the carb then we would see it in multiple cyls.

Mech says he still thinks its fuel not elec.

I am pulling my hair out on this one.

Thanks for all the help and any more ideas are welcome!

try swapping the coil, spark plug and wire to a different cylinder and see what happens... even though the carbs were rebuild dont be surprised if the float is stuck... look in the FAQ section theres a proper way to set the floats.

make sure the hoses are tight going to the carburetor and no air leaks...

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Thanks for the links and the tips.

We did swap the spark but not the coil or the wire.

Question though: when we covered the carb the cylinder picked up like it was getting fuel, would a coil respond differently by covering a carb? I dont know, but I would not think so.

If it were a float, then I would think the problem would have followed the carb when we swapped them and not stay with the cyl.

It really seems like that cyl is starving for fuel somewhere behind the carb but in front of the piston. Any gaskets in there that could be leaking?

When we sprayed power-tune in the cyl 1 carb, then put our hand over it, it responded like the other carbs and de-rated, but after letting the power tune run out and doing it again a few minutes later, the cyl wanted to increase rpms when we covered it back up with a rag.

It just does not appear to be electrical unless it resides in the pump but 1&3 feed off the same pump and I would think they would both be showing the same symptom.

Thanks again and any more tips are welcome!

 

[1984procraft]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

doesnt the reeds have gaskets? if so couldnt that be leaking.................not a pro, new to this but just an idea

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

originally you mentioned that it ran great, then didnt...and then it wouldnt idle..



at all or very well??

because it seems to me that a V4 would at least idle if one cylinder wasnt firing, but all three others were running good..( as you describe)

so if you cant idle. you should have more issues than just the one cyl;inder not firing..

I wonder of the base of the block were the #1 carb bolts on , has a leak somewhow...big burr...

when you blocked the other carbs..it was ONE AT A TIME??

and you noticed the motor running poorly right away?? right

but on the #1 carb...it seemed to rev up, when you blocked the air into the carb??? right??

I keep thinking reed valve...you switched carbs and it didnt change on either spot...so the carbs are the same....

you got spark you say??? but a bad spark would not wake up with less air flow...does each carb have its own fuel supply line??? maybe that line is slightly clogged, and you plug it into any carb you put in that spot...just a guess

maybe the #1 cylinder has a air leak into the cylinder diluting its gas mixture..

just thoughts..

good luck

bob

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Do a second compression check

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

I dont know if there are gaskets aroung the reed valve?

I was wondering the same thing on the base of the block by the carb, but if it was burred, I can't think of why it would run great for an hour then quit.

When we blocked the carbs it was one at a time, and noticed the motor running poorly right away.

Yes sir, when we blocked #1 carb it reved up.

Carbs seem to be the same, when we switched them the problem stayed with #1.

The fuel supply lines (2) go to 1 and 3, 2 and 4. So if it was the main supply, #3 should be acting the same as #1. Right, unless it is in the direct port into the carb? but we pulled it off and it seemed like it was flowing freely.

Yes, good spark, verified through sparck check and pulling the wires. I don't think that the spark or timing would wake up with increased fuel supply either.

I am thinking there may be an air leak as well but where could it be coming from since we isolated it to one cyl and both 1 and 3 feed off the same line.

Did a compression check before we ran, and when we got home to insure we did not loose the cyl. 127-130-130-127

The motor will idle now but the problem with #1 is still there. I am still confused about why it would run great for an hour then quit. Start up after 30 minutes of crank-sit-crank-sit... then surge back to the dock, and now idle ok, but still observe a problem with #1 behind the carb and in front of the cyl.

Thanks everyone and keep em' coming.... We are going to figure this thing out!

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/B... 1996/CARBURETOR & INTAKE MANIFOLD/parts.html

take a look here...there are 4 #47 parts used...each has its own #51 it looks like...it could be the reed got jammed or clogged after your rebuild of the carb...something let go and went back and got stuck in a reed...

it happened right after your carb rebuild!! right


plus you have several surfaces between the carb body and the block, that could be leaking air...

might have to take the intakes off to check...at least to rule out the reeds

especially since your mechanics are stumped.

I always suspect self inposed problems after you start messing with a motor and now stuff that was working good isnt...

did you do a lync and sync??

the throttle adjustment could be off on the throttle body and switching carbs doesnt aleviate the issue.



good luck

bob

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Awesome help Bob. I am going to forward it to the mechanic.
Correct, it happened just after the carb rebuild.
I did not personally rebuild my carbs, one of the mechanics did.
I dont know how the boat ran before because, (don't be too harsh on me, I did not follow my own rule) I did not run the boat on the water before I purchased it, because it had a rough idle and my mechanic said all it would need is for the carbs to be rebuilt.
It was the cleanest 96 montauk I have ever seen with only (est.) 300 hours on it.
We also took out the Pate Plastics (fiberglass) tank, replaced all lines, and fuel strainer, ran fresh fuel through it, and put it all back together. Ran like a dream in the driveway and on the water for an hour and a half until I brought it back to idle and it quit.
The lady I bought it off of said it ran great the last time she used it... 2 years ago! So it sat with fuel in it for two years. We scraped and dissolved a ton of varnish off the carbs.
The motor looks brand new, now I just wish it would freaking run.
Any other thoughts?

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

they say( I am needing to check my motor as well) that a lean condition( apparently what you may have) can be diagnosed by looking at the condition of the plugs...but the truth is you dont want to run lean very long...that is what burns up pistons....

good luck


I have a 1995 115 and a 1997 90 hp of the same style, just like your motor...

I like to keep tabs on problems and solutions to those style motors...you never know..rigth?

bob

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Bob, thanks for all the help. We check the color/condition of the plugs and found all four to be a nice tan color, and nott too wet/dry. Dually noted on the running lean. I would rather spend $25 on a leaking gasket then $2,500 on a powerhead.

I just figured someone out there reading this would have had the same issue in the past.

 

[spingley]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Seems to me it would have to be sucking air from somewhere other than thru the carburetor.

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

I feel the same, but I am stumped about where it could be coming from or why it would happen after an hour and a half of running. I guess a seal could have broken since the boat sat for so loing.

I like Bobs idea, from the previous post about the #47 and #51 parts. I think an air leak could be coming in from there but my mechanic has not call me back yet and I am getting nervous about the whole situation.

Anyone live in Eastern NC that has a good mechanic? I have gone through two on this ordeal.

 

[Eastmanscreek]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Everyone:

Thanks for all the help and advice. Finally took the boat to an Outboard Shop. Should have done that in the first place.

The mechanic said my carbs looked like they were never cleaned, so he cleaned them with a sonic cleaner, and reinstalled. After they were put back on he cranked the motor, and said the timing was so off, the boat wanted to idle at 3500 rpm. He then reset the timing.

The shop took the boat to the water and ran it for 30 minutes and said it ran like a champ.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me out on this and I will update if necessary!

 

[countvlad]

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Re: 1996 90hp Evinrude V4 Stall/Surge Free Beer!

Everyone:

Thanks for all the help and advice. Finally took the boat to an Outboard Shop. Should have done that in the first place.

The mechanic said my carbs looked like they were never cleaned, so he cleaned them with a sonic cleaner, and reinstalled. After they were put back on he cranked the motor, and said the timing was so off, the boat wanted to idle at 3500 rpm. He then reset the timing.

The shop took the boat to the water and ran it for 30 minutes and said it ran like a champ.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me out on this and I will update if necessary!

haha... I thought the carbs were rebuild??? "had all the carbs rebuilt."