2-strokes legal indefinitely?

[Huron Angler]

Do you think 2-stroke outboards will ever be regulated off the water due to environmental concerns?

 

[JB]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

No. Outboards that pollute too much may be regulated out of sales (like the 23 channel CB radios). . . .but:

There are a lot of 50-60 year old outboards in regular use today. They will be "grandfathered" as will modern high polluter outboards. It will take another 60-70 years for most of them to go out of use. Guys like TD and his ilk will keep some of them running fine into the 22nd Century. I guarantee you that in 2050 there will be JohnnyRude JWs and CDs in regular use.

Adapting older and current carbed 2 strokes to biodegradable non-petroleum fuels and lubes would make them clean burning. I ran my 2 stroke kart racing engines on methanol, nitromethane, other nitrated additives, ethyl ether and castor oil.

DFI 2 stroke outboards pollute no more than EFI 4 stroke outboards.

 

[Huron Angler]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

Guys like TD and his ilk will keep some of them running fine into the 22nd Century.

Couldn't agree more JB, one of the many reasons that this site has priceless value. Nice to be able to disseminate/absorb knowledge that is practical

 

[Joe_the_boatman]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

The precedent was set when older cars are grandfathered past current emissions standards. I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to outboards as well, especially being a much smaller group than the auto industry.



EDIT: Eh, forgot about Lake Mead

 

[jakebrake]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

folks, boats may be very well outlawed for the sake of the environment. i put nothing past our government.

if they do outlaw 2 strokes, i will build a diesel chainsaw, and nitro burning weed whacker in protest!

 

[QC]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

Didn't vote as there is no correct answer listed. What I would've voted for is:

Only in some places as the powers that be once and a while display some intelligence.

They will be "grandfathered" as will modern high polluter outboards. It will take another 60-70 years for most of them to go out of use.

There are exceptions to this for sure. Lakes Mead and Mohave have an outright ban on Carbed 2 cycles beginning in 2012. Maybe all National Parks for all I know, but not Grandfathered everywhere. Diamond Valley Lake is another example here.

Lake Mead language:
[FONT=&quot]Use of Two-stroke Engines[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The use of carbureted two-stroke engines will be prohibited on December 31, 2012.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These marine engines have been shown by the Environmental Protection Agency to be inefficient, allowing 25% of the fuel to be discharged directly into park waters. EPA prohibits the manufacture of these engines in 2006, when all marine spark ignition engines will have to meet higher operating standards. On December 31, 2012, all engines will be required to meet these EPA manufacturer standards for operation on Lakes Mead and Mohave. This approximate ten-year time frame is proposed to allow adequate time to inform the public and allow for a timely conversion to the more efficient engine technology.[/FONT]

DFI 2 stroke outboards pollute no more than EFI 4 stroke outboards.

Agreed, and most regs have this figured out and do not lump all two cycles together.

 

[McGR]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

We all know that old two strokes running in a barrell will quickly make a barrell full of slimey toxic mess. However, do they really effect a lake in the same manor? It seems to me that all beautiful lakes in the upper Midwest and Canada are just as clean and beautiful as I remember as a kid 35 years ago. During that time there have been countless hours of carbureted two stroke boating on these waters.

Have some areas actually expericed negative consequences from 2 cycle emissions? I can't seem to ever recall any reports of fish kills or other problems attributed to excessive two cycle outboarding. Is this just a bunch of environmentalism gone wild or is there some substance to these regulations and changes?

 

[Huron Angler]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

Have some areas actually expericed negative consequences from 2 cycle emissions?

I'd argue that the Exxon Valdez disaster 20 years ago caused 100x more damage than all the 2-stroke motors that have ever run in a lake, river or ocean. They are still trying to clean up that mess to this day I believe.

Another example is Lake Onondaga in Syracuse. Michigan Tech University(great engineers) was contracted to see what the best strategy to clean their industrial sludge was and after 10 years or so of analysis they determined that the damage is most likely irreparable. So I think we have bigger issues than outboards to address first.


Also, QC- sorry for not having better choices on the poll, you raise a very valid point with the slew of regulators out there with various jurisdictions.

 

[Rancherlee]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

We all know that old two strokes running in a barrell will quickly make a barrell full of slimey toxic mess. However, do they really effect a lake in the same manor? It seems to me that all beautiful lakes in the upper Midwest and Canada are just as clean and beautiful as I remember as a kid 35 years ago. During that time there have been countless hours of carbureted two stroke boating on these waters.

Have some areas actually expericed negative consequences from 2 cycle emissions? I can't seem to ever recall any reports of fish kills or other problems attributed to excessive two cycle outboarding. Is this just a bunch of environmentalism gone wild or is there some substance to these regulations and changes?

To put it simply, yes it can cause issues. A local small BUT busy lake there is constantly a thin oil like film on the water. 99% of the motors running around on this lake are small old boats running old 6-25hp motors and if you catch at the right time of day you can see the "rainbow" effect of the gas/oil in some places. I can't help but think this has to cause some issues with fish/waterfowl.

 

[dingbat]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

I'd argue that the Exxon Valdez disaster 20 years ago caused 100x more damage than all the 2-stroke motors that have ever run in a lake, river or ocean. They are still trying to clean up that mess to this day I believe.

Another example is Lake Onondaga in Syracuse. Michigan Tech University(great engineers) was contracted to see what the best strategy to clean their industrial sludge was and after 10 years or so of analysis they determined that the damage is most likely irreparable. So I think we have bigger issues than outboards to address first.

Two wrongs to make a right.

We are all obligated to do what we can to help protect the environment. Just because your neighbor is not doing anything about his septic tank leaking into a near by stream doesn't relive you of your obligation to protect the environment.

Pretty sad when people use a fish kill as a minimum qualifier for a body of water in trouble.

Around here, older 2 strokes are slowing being eliminated by peer pressure. The health of the Cheasapeake is taken very seriously around here. DNR is not shy about issuing a citiation if you leave any type of the sheen on the water behind the boat. The vast majority of the boats in use are late model DFI 2 strokes and 4 strokes. An old, fuel leaking, smoking belching 2 strokes will get looks and comments from their fellow boaters at the dock.

 

[Huron Angler]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

Two wrongs to make a right.

Your comment is correct but you, my friend, with all due respect are preaching to the choir. I run 100% MinnKota electric program and practice "leave no trace" on any waterway or forest, etc, that I may explore. My boat has been rowed or driven by electric power so I am fully on board with the protection of the environment.

I may have botched what I was trying to say pretty good I'll admit that. What I was trying to say was that there are plenty of environmentally damaging issues that FAR exceed 2-strokes. Coal fired plants, many of which are brand new and in China...which due to easterly wind currents dump mercury(not the motors) that ends up raining down in North America and contaminating the fish I'd like to catch and feed my family comes to mind as well.

Growing up in northern Michigan, respect for future generation's right to use is something that I've learned from older, wiser, more respectful folks than you might run into in your average suburb.

It's true that I am considering getting a 2-stroke 7.5hp Mercury but part of the reason I started this thread is that I know they are dirty and wanted to get some solid opinions on their actual impact before I get the motor. I've seen what my friend's 25hp 1972 Johnson leaks into the water and haven't been too thrilled about it. I may decide to just get the largest electric I can afford and call it good since I won't be waterskiing or tubing behind my 12' tinny anyhow.

Anyways, thanks for keeping me honest and holding my feet to the proverbial fire, and I'm glad to hear you step up and defend the environment

 

[Outsider]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

An old, fuel leaking, smoking belching 2 strokes will get looks and comments from their fellow boaters at the dock.

I might begin to pay attention when 'fellow boaters at the dock' start chipping in on payments for a new motor. Until then I have to deal with what I have, and the blue-bloods will just have to deal with it, too ...

Sorry, it hasn't been a good day in Carolina Country ...

 

[Bard1]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

If they do that, what next.....old cars?

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

We could soon be taking all our lawn mowers and weed whackers for e-tests !!!!

 

[McGR]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

They can take away my 2-cycle outboard when they pry the tiller handle from my cold dead hands.

 

[pmat1]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

If the government is gonna ban my 70hp 2 stroke they better buy me a brand new 4 stroke 115 and a new boat to accomidate its huge weight

 

[Lightnig]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

They can take away my 2-cycle outboard when they pry the tiller handle from my cold dead hands.

HAHAHA, that's awesome man, I love it.




Of course they will one day be banned, given the current mentality towards ecological 'correctness', I am surprised that you even have to ask. But, I am not going to expand on that because I don't want to risk breaching the boards 'no politics' rules...

 

[Lightnig]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

If they do that, what next.....old cars?

Ummm, I really, really hope that this is a case of me missing a sarcastic comment. Please tell me your not serious.

I've lost count of all the proposed 'clunker' laws that have been discussed, proposed, and in many areas passed all over the country side...

 

[pmat1]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

We could soon be taking all our lawn mowers and weed whackers for e-tests !!!!

They will start throwing cat converters on our lawnmowers so we would have no lawn to mow.

 

[esobofh]

Re: 2-strokes legal indefinitely?

Legacy 2-Strokes? ...even though some people will hate me.. hopefully, yes.

I just went for a swim at Kawkawa lake in Hope BC, and I couldn't get over the persistent oil film all over the lake. My kid was swimming in it! I definitely won't be taking him back there.. and this is a beautiful area. I would hope that the powers that be being to enforce some restrictions where there is clear and obvious negative impact. OR environmentally tested impact, where thresholds are defined, and when a lake hits its, 2 strokes get banned.

The new engines, especially the new e-tecs, are amazing.. you can barely smell them, let alone perceive any oil or sludge coming out of them. The technology is here.. if you don't want to go four stroke, get a new 2 stroke with DFI.