87 VRO bypass, running issues.

[urbanredneck]

Hi folks,

First post here. Have been reading posts for a few weeks now, searching thru as much info as I can. Ill try and keep it short.

Just bought my first boat, an 87 Mirrocraft with a 40hp evinrude VRO, all original OMC hydraulic steering setup, etc...
Motor model number i believe is ECLUD 40hp.

Having some standard issues with not having much power at WOT as of late . Have had er out 3 times so far. Seemed to run fine at first. But last trip I decided to actually give it some gas, and i was barely moving, with random big power surges.

After research, i did the usual. Took off the air box and inspected carbs. Blasted some cleaner through them and drained the bowls. Some more engine-familiar friends said the carbs look super clean, so i haven't done full rebuilds yet. Plugs look fine. Fuel is new, all lines appear intact. Starts and idles just fine. What gives?

Also, have been told I should can the VRO and run premix. Iv read all the pros and cons. One thing i haven't gotten an opinion on is the ratio of oil being sent in at different temps.

Example, last weekend when i took the boat out, i got a low oil warning alarm. Plenty of oil, prime bulb was always solid. Then, after the fact i remembered it was 28 degrees. Would cold temps reduce the oil going in?

Most the folks who are against removing the VRO say its a reliable system and shouldn't be removed because premix doesn't properly lubricate at higher RPMs.

Im just kind of lost. Of course, im spending way more money then anticipated, so im looking for advice on where I should focus time and funds at troubleshooting my problems so I can get on the water.

I will update with more info as I remember it. Thank you all for your time.

 

[racerone]

Well your " friends " are mistaken on a few points.------Premixing the oil at 50:1 is the best way to go and then there is no worry about lubrication at any temperature or at high RPM.----Report results of these tests,. ---Cylinder compression first.----Then check to see if spark will jump a gap of 3/8" or more.----And using " mechanic in a can " to blast some cleaner through the carburetor throats really does not clean the jets and working passages in the carburetors.

 

[urbanredneck]

Well your " friends " are mistaken on a few points.------Premixing the oil at 50:1 is the best way to go and then there is no worry about lubrication at any temperature or at high RPM.----Report results of these tests,. ---Cylinder compression first.----Then check to see if spark will jump a gap of 3/8" or more.----And using " mechanic in a can " to blast some cleaner through the carburetor throats really does not clean the jets and working passages in the carburetors.

I get what your saying. I actually work in an automotive shop, im a technician apprentice. Most of the advice I've received have been from auto mechanic veterans. Still. Most will admit they arent as familiar with outboards. But, would think the concepts are still the same, no ?

I had asked about compression test and was told it wasnt important because I dont have problems at start/idle. False?

 

[racerone]

If you report results we can help if not then that is OK too.

 

[urbanredneck]

Yes absolutely. During my time doing research, I've come across a lot of people with similar issues who never bothered reporting back what it took to solve the problem. Pretty much wasted time for everyone because someone else with the same problem will have to ask too. So i wont be that guy.

Just trying to get some solid info from folks who know these motors

 

[David Young]

A two stroke boat motor will start and idle perfect with 'low' compression. Good compression is very important on 2 strokes, should be the first thing done when buying a used boat. Just my opinion

 

[fhhuber]

I started having similar issues... with a 1989 GT 150 with VRO pump that had the oil injection disabled. (not sure how many years ago...)

Eventually I pumped up the priming bulb with the cover off the engine and the engine in the upright (as in planing) orientation and found the pump was leaking.

Pumping up the bulb with the engine angled as on the trailer just squirted fuel out of the carbs... It didn't pressurize the fuel system. The floats have to close their little valves.

When operating the old fuel pump wasn't leaking fuel... it was drawing air.
Maybe a rebuild kit would have fixed it... but the case had cracks in the plastic, so I didn't try.

Attempted using a pair of used older version (no VRO) pumps and rebuild kits. They leaked too...

Replaced the pumps and EVERY fuel line in the boat and engine.

I now have the pair of NEW earlier version pumps that don't have the VRO. Pre-mixing 50:1. Engine is running fine and I have to watch for red-line RPM when the boat is lightly loaded.

Note: the oil mix ratio is based on the most oil the engine will need. Not the least oil you can get away with.

************

May or may not be your issue... but the way I found my issue is free to test and takes about 2 minutes.

 

[BoatingCop]

IMO the VRO gets a bad wrap and is often blamed when it isn't the problem at all. For instance if someone melted a piston, they would say "the d@mn VRO went out", when they had a dirty carb that caused a lean condition on the cylinder. Just maintain the VRO and it will take care of you. Get new lines, make sure the tank is clean and use quality oil. I've had two VRO engines including my current one and never had an issue. If you run a lot of constant high RPM's OMC does reccomend that you add a little oil to the tank. Check the compression on your engine and take the carbs off and clean them WELL! You should have a nice running engine for years to come

 

[flyingscott]

A two stroke boat motor will start and idle perfect with 'low' compression. Good compression is very important on 2 strokes, should be the first thing done when buying a used boat. Just my opinion

Part of that is not true may or may not idle with low compression.
An outboard motor is not like a car engine
Your VRO unless it has been updated needs to be tested. If it has not been updated that needs to be done if you want to use it
Your VRO works cold or warm I duck hunt with mine.
Your oil injection is calibrated to provide only the needed amt of oil with a little extra no more.

 

[urbanredneck]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Ill comment on a few things I read.

The objective with this DIY venture is to obviously save some money. Shops around here start at $125 an hour and only go up from there. Got quoted $500 for a carb rebuild x2. Minimum fee 1 hour for any diag

I started contemplating removing the VRO system because of the frequent low-oil alarms and that all the extra hoses add more areas for air leakage.

From what I've read, it sounds as if my issue could be a lean condition. Caused by either mucked up carbs or some type of air leak getting into the system.

Have Also read the plastic OMC oil tanks are prone to water condensation buildup on the inside, getting into the oil. That, and the random false alarms and all the extra hardware involved with the system make me want to junk it.
Im just unsure; being new to the boat owning/ maintaining scene, it seems like one less thing to worry about. But then another part of me says that what if there's not a problem, why fix it?

 

[urbanredneck]

Just a quick little update.

I went out to where I store my boat (about a half hour drive ), to do a compression test. My idiot self forgot the key, and couldn't get a solid crank off the rope. Was seeing maybe 40lbs. Hoping that was my fault.

Also pulled the carbs off to do rebuild. In the process, took off the sound muffler/ airbox and pumped the fuel bulb to observe any leakage.
Noticed fuel coming out of the throats of the carbs after a few pumps.
A local boat guy said that's indicative of a stuck/fouled float. Any input on that? Im planning on doing the carb rebuilds anyway, but would like to learn the signs of a possible issue for the future.

Im also going to run back out and run a proper compression test before i spend the money on the carb kits, just in case. Dont have a ton of money or time, so im trying to focus on the most pertinent of issues.

Any more input would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[juno pierrat]

Yes carb kits are needed for flooding problem, try to get a manual, look around online some free to down load or theres Ebay

 

[urbanredneck]

Another update.

Went back out last night to run the compression test. Got a strong 115 to 120 on both cylinders. Good news.

Also will add, i noticed a few of the lines coming off thr VRO/ fuel lines leaking a bit. Appeared to be equipped with some sort of marine style hose clamp. Most were falling apart or otherwise not secured very well.

Can I get by with re fastening these lines, or do they all need replaced? None appeared to be in poor shape.

Also what's the best method? Iv seen and heard of zip ties. Or is it absolutely necessary to use the fancy style?

Thanks again.

 

[AlTn]

the marine type zip ties have a curved head which makes for a better "clamp" around a hose..I've used the brp ones and have heard the mercury ones are better...you are probably describing the pinch clamp type of clamp..reusable...in use currently, I don't have any experience with them, but they must work ok at least..some folks swear by the old style worm screw type clamps..whatever suits ya, go with it

 

[urbanredneck]

Thanks sir


Latest update. Rebuilt the carbs today. Bought new plugs and some marine zip ties.

Was at the local OMC dealer. He said my issues are most likely (he said 90% chance) , a link n sync issue

I grasp the concept. But never seen it discussed. Any input on his claim? Said it cost me $125. Maybe was trying to make some money. Maybe not.

Any more input on above subject or suggestions for the next troubleshooting step (assuming my spic n span carbs and plugs and secured lines don't do it) would again be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[urbanredneck]

Ill give another little update... appears the attention has fallen off here, but would still like to log my adventure for anyone else who may need the info.

So, i got the fresh carburetors installed back on the block. New spark plugs.

Put some zipties on the leaky lines. Couldn't seem to get them very tight; unsure if it'll have an effect.

After getting the system primed up, she finally turned over. Had an extremely high idle first go, turned out i had the rubber roller positioned too far back and was touching the throttle linkage. Adjusted that and I was golden.

She idled perfectly for 40 minutes. Motor was in a garbage can, soon as i put it in gear, it'd push all the water out of the can instantly. So, wasnt really able to see if my upgrades solved the issues or not (problems occured at mid to WOT ).
So ill have to wait until next weekend when i hit the water.

Ill be emptying my gas tank and refilling with a premium non ethanol fuel with a bit of sea foam.

Will also empty the VRO tank and fill with fresh oil, as well as clean out the tank/ filter. Hopefully that,and some zipties on the lines will stop the false low oil alarms.


Well thats it folks. If anyone feels like chiming in on anything you've read that im doing wrong, could do better, or am missing altogether, that'd be great.

Will update next weekend otherwise. Thanks

 

[urbanredneck]

Hi guys,

Latest update here. Ill recap what ive done since the initial inquiry.

-rebuilt, soaked, fully cleaned both carburetors
-secured what appeared to be loose oil/fuel lines
-emptied a full tank of 2 stroke oil, cleaned the tank,purged the lines, filled with fresh oil
-emptied the fuel tank, refilled with fresh, non ethanol gasoline and some sea foam.

So, she ran a bit better. When i first launched and was at the dock, it took me...dang, probably a good 30 minutes trying to start it. All the other boats launched and were long gone before me. It was just running last weekend. That normal?

Then, i get going, go about a mile upstream (im above a dam on a major river) ,find my first area to fish in,cut her off. Only stay 15m, then again, couldn't get it started. I start drifting closer and closer to the warning buoys at the mouth of the Damn. Wont start. Im freaking out. Im about to signal an emergency for a tow or something, i get probably within 100 yards of the damn, boom, up she goes.

Other then that, i went probably 6 or more miles up the river at medium throttle without issue.

Wasn't until coming home did i have a couple other hiccups:

At one point at near WOT, i lost engine power altogether. Didnt bog, just slowly died out. Then when it started, i couldn't get it to run with the fast-idle lever down (in the run position) . Soon as id drop it so i could shift, it'd die.
Got to the point where id have to do it in 1 swift movement, drop the idle lever and push throttle lever forward before it'd die. But then Would run fine.


So there it is. She seemed to "run" better, smoother, didn't hesitate or bog as much. If anyone could address those hard-start issues, or the engine wanting to die without fast-idle engaged, that'd be fantastic.

Iv learned so much lately and feel im gettin close to dialing this baby in.

Ohhh also,there was a bit of water in the VRO oil tank. I Don't submerge the boat, and its covered when not in use. If its merely from condensation, im shitcanning the whole system

 

[AlTn]

on eBay..factory service manual johnson evinrude outboard 1987 35A - 55 hp..reasonable...free shipping...as an auto tech. in training you know the value of knowledge and experience...the manual will provide the knowledge

 

[juno pierrat]

sounds like idle circuits in carb my have gotten dirty again, did you remove core plugs when rebuilding carb? thats part of the idle circuit, 2 or 3 small holes under there, if you did remove and install new core plugs you probably don' have spares to do it again, but you still can get to them form the front of the carb with very small wire, i like using a welders tip cleaning tool great selection of stainless steel wires large to small

 

[urbanredneck]

sounds like idle circuits in carb my have gotten dirty again, did you remove core plugs when rebuilding carb? thats part of the idle circuit, 2 or 3 small holes under there, if you did remove and install new core plugs you probably don' have spares to do it again, but you still can get to them form the front of the carb with very small wire, i like using a welders tip cleaning tool great selection of stainless steel wires large to small

Idle circuit? Never heard of that.

My style of carburetor was very simple. Only thing i could even remove was the bowl and associated pieces, and the small little brass jets, one at the bottom of the bowl and one smaller one on the top of the carb housing.

Other than that, i couldn't dismantle it any further. Was told the small jet at the top is idle or a low speed. And yes, that baby is essentially brand new.

It's odd, because last weekend once i reinstalled everything and got er going, she idled like a champ fpr 40 minutes.
And for 90% of the trip Saturday idled fine and ran good for the most part, then just randomly didn't want to stay running without Fast-Idle engaged.