Airplane on a treadmill

Lakester

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
428
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

hello,

say? why would it explode?? :confused:

regards,

lakester :cool:
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,997
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Well, say you've got a 500' treadmill with that front part 100' high with 3' thich steel poles... now a 747 might be able to get up to nearly 100mph (at least to 50 or 60, minimum) in that distance which is more than enough to cause a firey crash when it slams into those 3' thick steel poles, but the 500' runway wouldn't be long enough for it take off in.
 

Lakester

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
428
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Sure, you can answer, Lakester.

hello,

well, soley... just an educated guess... ;)

the small upturned fins on the end of the wing stop the formation of wing-tip vortices. forming these vortices takes quite a lot of energy, and so they can lead to increased drag. :eek: on planes that do not have the wing-tip fins, one can sometimes see the vortices during take-off and landing. :eek: :eek:

they can be very dangerous to the a/c landing or taking off behind the one creating them. they are worst so long as the a/c is still in ground effect...

so it goes :)

regards
lakester :cool:
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,728
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Nah, noone has guessed what a prop actually does.


It's to cool the pilot.

Think I'm lying? Just watch how fast the pilot starts to sweat when it stops turning. :D

Lakester I can tell you're a pilot, you haven't been wrong yet. The wing tip fins do just that. They basically make the plane slip through the air easier. And....they look cool.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

K - you got the airplane part but didn't answer the sailboat part .... 50% only!
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
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Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Australia II
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
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Dec 5, 2007
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Re: Airplane on a treadmill

You got it - winged keel to reduce turbulence and drag. I used to race sailboats in and around the Newport, RI area and remember everyone going nuts when the Aussies started winning - some very unhappy campers at the NYYC! Interestingly enough, the boat was measured for conformance with the 12 meter rule before the races (as the boats always were) and the measuring committee decided it was "legal."
 

MikDee

Banned
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Messages
4,745
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Nah, noone has guessed what a prop actually does.


It's to cool the pilot.

Think I'm lying? Just watch how fast the pilot starts to sweat when it stops turning. :D

Lakester I can tell you're a pilot, you haven't been wrong yet. The wing tip fins do just that. They basically make the plane slip through the air easier. And....they look cool.

Good one WITF, So True :D
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

There'd be lots of failures if you guys were in a low speed aerodynamics class. You may be pilots, but you're obviously not aerodynamicists or aeronautical engineers. Bet you haven't designed many aircraft wings. You obviously didn't read the last couple of paragraphs of my post with the picture of the airplane and the winch.

From Jay Merrill:
In the case of an airplane, airflow splitting on each side of the leading edge of the wing reaches the trailing edge at the same time but, the upper surface of the wing is curved (longer distance) so the airflow over it must accellerate in oder to meet the "bottom air" at the same time. This causes a low pressure area on the upper surface of the wing, which creates lift.

Ever seen an airplane fly upside down? Hmm, the curved surface is on the bottom now, what's holding it up????

Ever made a paper airplane? How much camber (curve) did you put in the wings?

Here's the way NASA says lift really works:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/right2.html

And here's NASA's rebuttal to the "Bernoulli Effect" (from the quote above) theory:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/wrong3.html

This one is kind of a synopsis of the arguments:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

Quote from the above NASA citation:

The most popular incorrect theory of lift arises from a mis-application of Bernoulli's equation. The theory is known as the "equal transit time" or "longer path" theory which states that wings are designed with the upper surface longer than the lower surface, to generate higher velocities on the upper surface because the molecules of gas on the upper surface have to reach the trailing edge at the same time as the molecules on the lower surface. The theory then invokes Bernoulli's equation to explain lower pressure on the upper surface and higher pressure on the lower surface resulting in a lift force. The error in this theory involves the specification of the velocity on the upper surface. In reality, the velocity on the upper surface of a lifting wing is much higher than the velocity which produces an equal transit time.

Here's one of the more readable explanations I've found. The last paragraph has a good theory on the popularity of the Bernoulli myth:

A common misconception about wings

While lift generated by an airfoil is often attributed to Bernoulli's Principle, it cannot be used to explain this. The popular and faulty explanation is generally written as this:

A wing is flat on the underside and curved on the top (is cambered). Thus air that moves over the top of the wing must travel a longer path to get to the end of the wing and therefore gets a higher velocity. According to Bernoulli's Principle, the faster moving air has lower pressure and the difference therefore results in lift.
This explanation is flawed in a critical aspect: it assumes that two parcels of air separated at the leading edge of the wing, with one traveling over and one traveling below, must meet again at the trailing edge of the wing. This does not happen. In fact the Kutta-Joukowski Theorem shows that if this was to happen, the wing would generate no lift.

The actual mechanism generating lift on an airfoil is Newton's Third Law of Motion. An airfoil is always flown at an angle of attack against the air flow. As the wing deflects air downwards the opposing reaction force on the wing pushes it upwards. Note that nearly all of the lift arises from airflow over the top of the wing being deflected downwards, due to the Coanda Effect; the deflection due to the underside of the wing makes only a small contribution. (This is one reason why wing-mounted jet engines are suspended below the wing, rather than being placed on top of it - the disruptioin to flow over the bottom surface of the wing has much smaller effect of lift than mounting the engines above the wings.) Contrary to Bernoulli's Principle this explains why an aircraft with a thrust-to-weight ratio less than 1.0 can fly on a level flight path while being upside down (instead of being pulled dramatically towards the ground); why slim wings, such as those of the F-104 Starfighter or those of a paper plane, generate lift despite the camber being nonexistent; and why some lifting body aircraft can fly despite being very bulbous on the underside.

The airflow can be observed by solving the Navier-Stokes equations for the appropriate flow regime (turbulent or laminar) and the pressure along the wings edges directly calculated. As pressure is simply a measurement of force per unit area, integration of the pressure along the wings surface (both top and bottom) provides an overall force, which is the amount of lift provided by the wing.

Though Bernoulli's Principle cannot be used to explain the lifting mechanism, it can still be used to accurately analyze the airflow around an airfoil. If you know either the air pressure or the air velocity over a wing you can use Bernoulli's equation to calculate the value of the other property. The equation is very often used this way. This high frequency of use has been cited as the reason the misconception has arisen.

Sorry Lakester, we're going to have to take your prize away!
 

captain zac

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
270
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

No one has talked about the speed of the TM (does not matter)
In order for the aircraft to fly it would have to have create a forward speed over the ground not the TM (+or- winds)
that is greater than its V1 speed
It would have to determined if there is enough TM or runway to get the aircraft up to the Vr speed.
You would also have to know the density altitude, elevation, temp., winds ect.
Bottom line is

with what info that was given to us we can not answer the quiz with an absolute answer

Harry
 

captain zac

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
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Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Just thought of a good example

Aircraft Carrier

The aircraft carrier is much like a tread mill

If the carrier is moving through the water at 10 kts with a 10 kt tailwind the airplane that is sitting on deck waiting to take off has a ground speed of 0.
If it takes 100kts for the aircraft to become airbourne then we have to have enough thrust to overcome drag before we get to the end of the airstrip.

If the carrier is traveling at 50kts and we have a 15kt headwind the aircraft is traveling 65kts across the ground but standing still on the runway. Now the aircraft only has to accelerate 35 kts to overcome Lift Drag. This allows the aircraft to takeoff from a shorter airstrip.

Harry
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
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Re: Airplane on a treadmill

The treadmill has been given NO performance constraints like a belt speed limit that the plane MIGHT overcome at 54 MPH :rolleyes: and begin to make the ground speed nessary to creat lift



Tommays
 

i386

Captain
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
3,548
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

The treadmill has been given NO performance constraints like a belt speed limit that the plane MIGHT overcome at 54 MPH :rolleyes: and begin to make the ground speed nessary to creat lift



Tommays

It needs air speed. Not ground speed. The only way the ground speed could be a factor is if it moved so fast that it destroyed the tires/wheels/bearings causing the plane to wreck (like a car) before it had time/distance to to gain enough airflow across the wing surface to provide lift. :rolleyes:

The plane doesn't have to overcome the belt because there's no power to the wheels. If you put wings on a car, then yes it would have to overcome the speed of the belt by spinning the wheels 2x the speed of the belt + speed required for lift.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Simple...get out of its way, prop or jet or rocket, its taking off. Treadmill moves zip, as the wheels aint the driven factor
 

mudmagnet63

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
231
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Nothing like a good argument to make my day ;) The plane will fly!!!
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
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May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Airplane on a treadmill

Nothing like a good argument to make my day ;) The plane will fly!!!

SOOO simple. !!!!!!!
Strap a rocket pack on yer butt...and carry a Kite. Run like the devil on a treadmill..zip. Kite still limp.
NOW...torch the "Butt Pack".....(its whats the "driving force")
:eek::cool::rolleyes::eek:
 
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