"Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Probably not. That dealer sounds like a crook. But what consumers need to understand is that, unlike a car that you drive in to get repaired, a marine dealer gets a non running machine with a story as to what its doing. Countless times the " it runs a little rough" has turned out to be a bad starter, dirty carbs, bad lower unit gears, low compression and a dead electrical system. Oh, lets not forget the trim leaks too. Believe me when I tell you that consumers are usually much worse than crooked dealers. Everybody tries to slide it pass the service writer as if by not telling them about the problems, a tech can just fix everything with an adjustment. There are bad dealers out there. I can think of three out of the 11 largest dealers in Tampa that are known by the rest of us to be thieves. But, in the end consumers will get them. But for every dishonest dealer there are a thousand dishonest consumers.

 

[NMplayer]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Something else that I was thinking about. If you take your 1985 car to the mechanic and he puts new belts and hoses on it and does a carb kit.<br /><br />Four months later the alternater goes out. Nobody in their right mind would expect the tech to stand by parts he didn't touch. I don't know why its different with outboards.<br /><br />Say I had one of you guys seal my gear case. One week later my power pack or switch box goes out. I'd just bring it back in and have you fix that too. What choice would I have?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

NMplayer<br /> in our business yep. they will say I only used it twice and it always worked before you worked on it.<br /> when I do an overhaul I give a one year warrenty but I also stress this warrenty does not cover dirty carbs or water in the fuel. nor does it cover overheats not caused by defective t-stats or pumps. my overhauls are not cheap cause they also include new exhaust divider plates and total gearcase teardowns.<br /> but its better to charge it up front then have it come back 3 months later with a shelled gearcase or a leaking exhaust plate.

 

[HeadHunt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

rodbolt,<br /> Do you know a guy named Chris at Wanchese Marine?<br /><br />HeadHunt

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

is this the wanchese marine thats owned by the Parkers and is merc and suzuki?

 

[HeadHunt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I think so. It is behind the Red & White just before you enter Wanchese. I always heard Chris was the only Merc. guy on the Outer Banks and he is excellant.

 

[tallcar]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I am so interested in this post, I myself am a self proclaimed shade tree mechanic for classics.<br /><br />I own 2 '46 mercs, 1 '56 Merc MK25E Hurricane Electric), '49,'53,'56,'59 Johnson's, and many others, a total of 12 outboards, ranging between '46 - '74, from 2.5 hp - 25 hp. I have received all of these outboards needing some sort of tlc. I have gotten all of them ( save 2 that I have not found time to get to , to good running condition. I owe alot to the fine people of this forum, and paying the price for a good manual. I have been to all of the local dealers, they all are very helpful with info, but when I tell them the year of the motor, they just shake their heads and say.." Are you willing to spend $100-$1000 more than what you paid for that classic?" I can only shake my head and say I do not have that much money to spend. Then I met "Dave" at the local dealer, he pulled me aside and said "I got two words of advice for you if you want to get the classic running somewhat cheaply"... his exact words were.... MANUAL.. and beleive it or not...IBOATS.. He gave the web address for this wonderful site. The rest shall we say is history. I am only saddended by the fact that I have had opportunities to buy nearly 30 more outboards of varying sizes and manufacturers, but have no more room and low on funds. I know I did not make my opinion as to whether "authorized dealers" are valid or not, I just thought someone might enjoy finding out how I found this great site I have had many neighbors from around my lake that have asked me to " look at my motor" some ranged from " Dealer said it had blown gaskets, sucking air, ( that one actually had stripped carb bolts and was letting too much air into motor. Took two new studs, like $0.50) That man was soooo happy. In effect the dealer was correct in his diagnosis, but the cause was missed. Does this make his a "crook"? I don't think so, after looking at the moter, he probably thought as most, " Not worth fixin " ok there is my $0.02 worth

 

[NathanY]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Wow, this is an excellent discussion.<br /><br />I agree and empathize with both sides on this one. I had a 1974 Merc, that I needed the timing set on, thats it, just the timing. No one around here would even touch it because it had a distributor. I luckily found an independant shop that would do it, but he charge me more than what the dealer rates where. I didnt care though.<br /><br />Its about service. I CAN afford to buy a new motor but why would I want to? If I have a motor that is running good, why would I want to replace it just because it needed a little work? <br /><br />It is not cost effective to replace motors no matter the age. If my 1990 60hp Evinrude that is on my boat now is worth $700, and last June I spent $1900 on a complete rebuild, how it is more cost effective if I bought a new 60hp at $5000 if I get a plastic bag stuck to the lower unit and burn it up too? But the dealer would not work on that motor either, I had to take it back to an independant shop too. Dealer really worked to sell me a new motor though. <br /><br />By the way, I can work on just about any outboard out there, but time is an issue for some of us that have full time jobs outside the marine industry, so when my boat went down, I had to get it fixed quickly, to get back on the water during the peak of fishing season. Thats why I took it to a shop.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

headhunt<br /> same place<br /> and if you ever wish to step back in time go into the red and white hardware store <br /> I know craig parker. his son got killed a few years back. craig is a good guy. the death of his son was hard on him. my daughter was a classmate with his son at manteo high. I cant remember the names. but I think he has a chris working there

 

[Clams Canino]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I'm glad I started the thread... I'm learning something too. Rodbolt you may email me at will. I was just in Carey over the weekend too.<br /><br />-W

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Let me try this a different way with a make believe boater named Bubba. Bubba has a 1984 model Chrysler 85 hp on the back of a 17' Seabreeze bowrider. He bought the boat and engine from a guy, used, back in 2000 for $1200.00.<br />Since then he's put in a waterpump kit a couple of times and had a carb job done once. And just for the sake of argument, he replaced the trim motor. So over the last four years he's dropped somewhere between $800.00-$1200.00 on reasonable operational costs. Today he goes to start the engine and .....there's dead silence. So he takes it in to his local Yamhonsuzmerevijonnistoh dealer who's always worked on it since Bubba has owned it. They are an authorized dealer for three brands of engines and have three full time techs(two of which are good and one dummy). They have never stuck him with a huge bill, except for that trim motor, but that was a real expensive part and Bubba knew it was going to cost him so that was ok. So far, in this little story everybody is getting along just great. Here's where it gets a little tricky. Bob, one of the good techs at the dealer, does his little trick with a multi tester and decides that the starter is kaput. He calls Bubba and tells him that it's going to run around $300.00 to fix that problem. Bubba say's "do it". Bob put's the starter on and it cranks over just like new....except that it doesn't start. So, Bob checks for fire on the ignition system and...nothing. He runs his little test and decides that one of the cd modules is bad. He calls Bubba and Bubba says " I don't understand, it was running great last month when I used it. How could that be? But, I'm into it for $300.00 now. Go ahead and put on that CD for $200.00." Bob's starting to think that this engine better not have anything else wrong with it because he knows that Bubba will think that either he's a crook or not a particularly great tech. Bob puts on the new cd and....the engine sputters and starts....it runs only as long as he chokes it. So he calls Bubba again. Bubba is now told it's going to be $150.00 to clean those three carbs. Bubba gives the ok, but he's not thrilled anymore with Bob. You see it's the messenger who gets blamed at this point. Now here's where the story can go two ways. First, Bob cleans the carbs, the engine runs great and Bubba pays his $700.00 and goes boating without a problem for another year. Of course he still is a little ticked off at Bob and tells everyone he knows that he thinks they padded the bill/broke something themselves/Bob is a retard. Or, second and much more likely, the engine starts and runs, but when Bob puts it into gear it doesn't feel right. Bob's not stupid, the first thing he did when he got the engine in was to check the gear oil. It was a little dirty, but no metal. So Bob drains the gearcase and discovers two nice little junks of steel. Bob knows this is not going to be his lucky day. He pops the carrier and finds that the clutch is really worn and the forward gear is missing a chunk out of it. He takes a Tums and calls Bubba and tells him another $375.00 to repair the lower unit. Bubba is now sure that Bob is a crook/idiot. He tells him to not touch his engine any more. He comes in to pick it up. Pays the $700.00 he owes( Bob eats the teardown)<br />and takes the engine to another guy who fixes it for $400.00. Bubba bad mouths Bob and his dealership for the next ten years. <br /><br />The moral of this story:<br /><br />No one did anything wrong, no one was a crook, Bob is an honest guy that knows his craft. Bubba is a reasonable guy. But the circumstances conspired to make this a bad situation for everyone. Bubba is out out of pocket $1100.00 on an engine thats worth $600.00. The dealership loses a good loyal customer, who ends up directing 20 other people to buy/repair from someone else. This really does happen to dealers rather frequently...unless they push the Bubbas of the world away with a policy about older engines. Is that policy a good thing for the consumer, yes/no/maybe. But, it gives that dealer an excuse not to get trapped into a nightmare. It also allows service work to filter out to other dealers that have smaller shops. I'm not saying that authorized dealers should always turn away an older engine. But if your shop is busy, and you have been burned enough, you should be able to nicely tell someone that they would be better off to take it somewhere else without being held up as an uncaring jerk.

 

[Clams Canino]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

And this is where I must dissagree. <br /><br />A: The chance of two random electronic failures at the same exact time is very slim.<br /><br />B: Assuming that really happened, I'd try to pad the labor bill DOWN for the carb cleaning.<br /><br />C: I would not touch or discuss the lower unit. Setting up a "round two" - hands off till asked. Teflon gloves.<br /><br />But..... I understand the scenario... which is why dealers and warrantee work go good together.<br /><br />Using Headhunt as an example.. I didn't even try to put it in gear. I got the motor running right, and took the extra ten minutes to explain the concept of "on the water" idle mix setting.<br /><br />If his lower unit is hosed, he can buy one on Ebay like everyone else. <br /><br />-W

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I understand why you dissagree, but...it happens all the time. The starter and cd are two different systems. The cd failure is random, but the starter is a age/wear/environment failure. Remember, we are talking about a 21 year old engine here. Not a new or like new engine(I would agree that on a ten year or less engine its unlikely)<br /><br />And while I think you are a great guy to drop your price on the carb job...Its three carbs. With parts and labor, keeping in mind I'm talking about a multiline dealer that has a $90-$100 shop rate, charging for one hour plus the parts is a bargain for Bubba. As a business man you owe it to yourself and your family to charge what you are worth. Half of the people that come in for serivce work can't really afford it...without giving up something else. <br /><br />On the lower unit, my imaginary dealer has a different philosophy than you. Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle of both of you. If I had an engine that came in for a waterpump and we noticed that the powertrim allowed the engine to leak down by the end of the day. We may not think its something to scare the man about. On the otherhand, I would fire a tech that new there was something wrong, that could strand someone, and not report it. <br /><br />Having said all that...Last Saturday imaginary Bubba won the imaginary lottery and bought a new imaginary boat from another imaginary dealer who sold him a six year warranty(imaginary of course).<br /><br />AND THEY ALL LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER..except for Bob who still is underpaid and not appreciated by anyone.

 

[boltbreaker]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

From the post that started it all:<br />"The last of the inline 4 "Super Thunderbolts" is ten years old, the last of the "Tower of Power" is 16 years old. If you have one of these motors you really need to find a mechanic that's over 40. Every area has one, usually spread by word of mouth. When I was back in NH the car guy was "Fred's Auto", The outbord guy was me. "<br /><br />Careful there. I'm 26 years old and can do anything you want to the old mercs. I can't think of anything I would rather work on than the four cyl "marks". The older engines are not rocket sciece, and I would recommend one over a 2005 to anybody. <br /> Jeff Spieth<br /> www.spiethmarine.com

 

[Trophy23]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I like clams approach to the problem by Elvin. Probably would keep the customer from wondering why you were in the gearcase when he came in for a starting problem anyway. <br /> I however had a 1988 220 Mariner that was having running problems. Trouble shot with help of iboats forums and found I had a bad stator, bad switch box, and bad regulator. All at same time. Previous owner had also cut neutral start wire on shift console due to starting problems. Once warm, engine had to be started in gear or it would die when engaging gear. My point is that according to what happened to me and what other people say on the forums is that often we have dual random electronic failures. Even happens in cars where a regulator or battery failure can take out a alternator too. <br />I personally ended up taking my motor to the dealer mechanic because I still had over oiling between 3500 rpm and about 4200 rpm causing excess smoke after warmed up. He fixed it, it ran well on one trip to lake. Put boat up for a couple of months and guess what, had same problem with over oiling next time out. I don't think dealer mechanic ripped me off as much as I believe a check valve was sticking and became unstuck for awhile and then again stuck after being left sitting for awhile. I'd had enough of the 2 stroke problems and bought a new 4 sroke motor mainly because I figure it's a little more to my understanding on how it all works. Some times I wish I'd found a mechanic like Clams or JB to repair the Mariner or one who at least understood what the motor was doing. I never got that feeling at the dealership, I don't think they even thought about check valves sticking. <br />They however never ever pressured me into buying a new motor. In fact I was looking at a Honda but decided to stick with Merc's new motor. I don't think the dealer mechinic would have undertood what the Mariner was doing without a boat ride anyway. With todays marine mechanic costs(and they were just as bad buying power wise back in the old days) that probably won't happen unless the marine dealership is right on the water. Mine wasn't. <br />The point is, if there is a point , just like old cars, if you want to pay a large amount of cash up front I'm sure you can find some one to restore it to original or operating condition. However, it's going to cost you. Or, you better get good at fixing it your self with a manual and this forum's help. It's up to the consumer to do the research and find out who is and who is not worth the money. <br /> Sooo, help us all out. Who are the good guys in our area!!!! ha As long as you can put the boat in the water once again, it's a great day. Enjoy em all while ya can.

 

[HeadHunt]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

How is it that any of these "authorized dealers" can charge $75-$100 per hour for labor. Those rates have to be padded. On top of that, the local Merc. Authorized Dealer charges $5.25 for NGK plugs that I can order from Advance Auto for $1.98 and get them PDQ at 8:00am the next morning. I am sure they are padding the other parts prices as well.<br /><br />HeadHunt

 

[Laddies]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Clams there are alot of talkers (techs) but not many mechanics left out there. Bob

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

internetoutboards makes a good point with his<br />bubba story, but that same exact scenario can/<br />does happen even on much newer motors...<br /><br />change the motor from an '84 force/chrysler to<br />a '94 merc. it's the same story/outcome.<br />(other than force is a POC to begin with and<br />parts are hard to find)<br /><br />willing to bet you can find just as many newer<br />motors with serious problems as old ones. older<br />doesn't automatically mean worse or visa/versa.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

mellowyellow,I think iternetoutboards is also trying to explain how easy it is to put way too much $$ in a way too old motor.I can only add that similar work to a older Merc 1150 would run around<br />$1100 to $1200 and that's just for parts.I'd rather just not do the job,as I don't feel these motors are worth it.<br /> And after resurecting an 'oldie', it comes back in the spring needing parts that are no longer available,so the customer has a very expensive,very old 'anchor' ,and still needs to find another motor.<br /> On the other side,there are a 'few' shops that are good,and will take the time to scout and stockpile used parts.And they work on these older engines ofen enough to do it profitably.Can I put the degree wheel on an old Merc distributor and set the points ? Certainly !I even know where the wheel is,but it hasn't been used in about 15 years.I'd have to pull the book out and re-educate myself.My hat's off to these guys that still do this work often,that's why I don't compete with them,and that's why I send the work to them.<br /><br />DHP

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

but don't you run into the exact same problems<br />with much newer motors DHP? <br /><br />the way I see it, all motors require maint and<br />it's gonna cost you money. motors that are NOT<br />properly maintained are gonna have serious problems<br />and cost a LOT of money to fix. <br /><br />I personally would never rebuild any motor new or<br />old. once they go south, they're never the same<br />again IMO.