"Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

HeadHunt

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
172
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

They don't use boats in Tampa year round? I use mine year round in NC. Most times I have to wait in line at the ramp. Boatowners do represent a smaller market, I agree. Thats why you have three boat dealers for every 100 car dealers. That doesn't justify the overpricing of parts and labor.
 

NMplayer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
170
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

So you think that there is just as much money to be made off of a marine Dealership as there is off of an auto dealer?
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
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Jul 22, 2004
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Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Lets try it this way:<br /><br />One attorney charges $125.00 per hour and reviews real estate contracts.<br /><br />Another attorney charges $175.00 per hour and does child custody cases.<br /><br />Another one charges $250.00 per hour criminal law.<br /><br />They are all good attorneys. They are all friends of mine. They would each handle any kind of case for me. But, when I sell a chunk of land I use the guy that does real estate. When my ex-wife goes nuts I use the guy that does child custody. And when my piece of crap nephew gets in trouble I use the criminal law guy to get his sorry butt out of trouble.<br /><br />The point being that each one's strength is in his specialty. The same holds true for dealerships and techs. Dollar per hour aside. You go to an authorized dealer when you want the best/well trained/backed service for that brand. You go to a non authorized dealer when your engine engine is older, has a simple problem or you distrust the authorized dealer in your area. That's just the way it is. <br /><br />Headhunter, are all parts overpriced? I think a lot of them are. But, I don't blame the dealer in our industry or any other industry for parts costs. I blame the cost of raw materials, manufacturing, maintaining inventory, labor, government regulation and taxes, and the capitalist system. What is an acceptable profit margin for parts? 25%,40%,50%? Remember back 20 years ago when you could go buy a loaf of bread in Russian store for a nickle? The only problem was the store never had any to sell. <br /><br />Dealers are not in business to provide the lowest cost anything. They are in business to make the most money that they can. Some business's sell low and depend on volume to show a profit. Others sell high to a select few who who are willing to pay more for a perceived greater value in product or service.<br /><br />In the end it is you, the consumer who votes with your pocketbook, as to which is the best value. And if you decide to go with the lower price business, great. But, complaining that the higher business is overcharging is not really fair.
 

DHPMARINE

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Dec 16, 2003
Messages
3,688
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Didn't matter,the guy didn't have a nickle in his pocket<br /><br />DHP
 

Laddies

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Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Internet do you do repair work for your customers by the flat rate manuel as you must for factory repairs or do you use a differant charge system and add extra fees to factory flat rate
 

phatmanmike

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Oct 24, 2003
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3,869
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

this post is for all you people who keep trashing/ badmouthin "internet outboards"<br /><br />i know his real name, as i was lucky enough to actually use him for some parts and support, although i did the service myself.<br /><br />elvin actually talked to me on the phone, in person, when i needed to order some parts for my toe-what-sue.<br /><br />i had it all set in my heart what i was gonna buy and called the toe-what-sue dealer in tampa, even though i am over 1 hour away and have to pass 3 other/closer tohatsu dealers to get to him. <br /><br />he began by asking me on the phone what my problem was with the motor, ya know, what was it or wasnt it doing? i ended up needing to order a waterpump kit and a lower unit seal kit, both for my 1992 5hp nissan. he stated that they had a pump kit, but it want a complete kit and was missing some parts from the box, and would order me 1 asap and ship it strait to my door. i said A.O.K....<br /><br />3 hours later, i get a phone call from elvin. he says he found the missing parts seperatly and comstructed a complete kit for me and it would be at my door the next moring, wich it was!<br /><br />i was really thrown back by the personal phone call to let me know that my parts would be coming sooner than i thought. i was really thrown back by the fact that the supreme manager of this business would take time to act as parts guy and then act as telephone service tech and the act as telephone customer service. i was astounded.<br /><br />they are a VERY large dealer setup, supplying most of the USA dealers with THEIR parts. he aint running no mom and pop shop, but whenever i speak to him personally, i get the attitude, greetings, personallity and general niceness that you would expect from a mom and pop shop.<br /><br />and for that, they will continue to get my businees from across the bay , passing 3 other dealers to get to them.<br /><br />i have dealt with local independant techs also, and both times i did so, my motors blew up within a wek. 2 days for 1 and the foirst day for the other. the first motor i bought in jan. 2004, and havent gotten it back YET. it blew a rod because the top carb ran lean, buring out the bearings, but even though the motor had a warranty when i bought it two days ago, and HE rebuilt and tested the carbs himself 2 days ago, it was still my fault some how, even though i did absiluetly nothing in ways of tuning the motor. he is 85 miles each way from me, and i went their cause of his warranty. yeah, burn number 1.<br /><br />burn #2 is just worse, and wont even go there! lets just say it involved me finding beer cans and food in my boat while it was parked at his shop. took 7 weeks to install a steering cable and the control box. he supplied the steer cable, i had the box already mounted in the boat. but still took seven weeks.<br /><br />heres my point.<br /><br />just cause they are big, doesnt mean they will rip you off, or "pad" your bill.<br /><br />just cause they are small and mom/pop, doesnt mean they are gonna stand on their word and be reliable.<br /><br />and also, one more thing..... when you pay 100 dollars an hour for labor, your paying for the TOTAL service of the motor, not just the tech to work on it. its a service driven industry in a capitol driven country in an even greedier world.<br /><br />have an ice day<br /><br />mike
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Wow, I just saw this thread and so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.... 1st, I don't think too many businesses raise their labor rates an additional 25% just because they "are authorized" to, most companies must consider what the market will bear and what the competition is charging!! Is it "fair" that a shop charges $100.00 per hour?? Don't know, I just went up from $65 to $70. But I do know that for $100 bucks, I better get $100 worth of "quality" service!! My techs should be top notch and I should be able to decern when an old klunker is probably worth the money it will take to "possibly" fix it! BTW, if I could predict the future,(and how much money it WILL take to repair your motor), I would be down at Lotto headquarters and NOT at work !!! <br />Another subject hit upon earlier is mechanics! Most of the good 'ol timers have either retired, died (suicide ??),or have not kept up on the new stuff!!The rest of us are too stupid to get out of this job!! Most of the young pups today (and we need ones with that work ethic that seems to have vanish'd) don't know the "old stuff". That leaves most of you somewhere in the middle. May I suggest a seperate listing by iboats of "recomendations" by happy and content customers of where they have recieved quality service from. List those dealerships and independent service shop by name and state. List positive comments by those people and a "star" rating to give the public the ability to voice their displeasure with an "offending" shop! No "stink-talk" allow'd! Perhaps it would help weed out some "less than honest" shops and steer some customers to shops that LIKE working on older product, warranty work or ....... And give that shop the ability to make a comment or two about their shop, their "mission statement", their strenghts, etc Blah, blah, blah,,, Just a thought!
 

mellowyellow

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
5,327
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

I would still rather have a 30yr old "properly<br />maintained" outboard then a 5yr old "rebuilt"<br />overheated/abused etc. outboard on my transom.<br /><br />I don't care if an outboard is 5 or 30, if it's<br />not properly maintained, it's gonna turn into<br />junk real quick and be real expensive to fix.<br /><br />right now I have a '76 mercruiser/GM/I-4/181 in<br />my boat. pull the engine cover and within 5 secs.<br />you can tell it's been babied it's whole life and<br />doesn't have many hours on it... it looks better/<br />than most 5yr old I/O's I've looked at, not even<br />a chip in the origional paint!<br /><br />MY point is, just because she's older, doesn't<br />mean she's junk and just cuz a motor is only 5yr<br />old doesn't mean it's good.<br /><br />when I bought my '70 115merc it was the same story.<br />pull the cowl and the motor looked brand new even<br />down to the origional plug wires and started right<br />up. BUT, I still spent a good chunk of money doing<br />pre-maint on her since I'd rather have a starting<br />point... R/R 3 carbs, new f/pump kits, new w/pump<br />kit. total cost was about $1,000.00 and I was<br />happy to pay since I didn't have the time.<br />that's almost as much as the whole boat/motor cost<br />but IMO it's the cost of being a boater.<br /><br />I would have done the same exact thing on a 5yr old<br />motor too, but that's just me... I don't like to<br />paddle.
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
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Jul 22, 2004
Messages
6,164
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Laddiesservice,<br /><br />We use the flatrate manual except where we anticipate saltwater problems. IE. Say the factory manual gives .5 hours for a waterpump, plus another .5 for A & T and admin. On a freshwater engine( that's about 1/3 of of our customers) the customer has a 99.99% chance that he/she/it will get a $100.00 total labor charge. On a saltwater engine we use the same base of $100.00, but tell them up front, that if any bolts break off, or we have to torch a bolt, their bill will began to increase anywhere from $10.00 to $40.00 per bolt(heli-coil). It's not a perfect system for estimating repair costs, but we used to do it the other way, experience= total guess and people didn't like the open ended question on time. We changed in the early 80's when we got away from the "mom and pop" style of dealership management.
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
6,164
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Mike,<br /><br />Keep saying nice things and I'll have to put you on the payroll.<br /><br />Thanks,
 

HeadHunt

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
172
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

INTERNETOUTBOARDS,<br /> What is .5 for A&T and admin?<br /><br />HeadHunt
 

phatmanmike

Captain
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
3,869
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

i only say what ive seen!!!<br /><br /><br />by the way, you dont happen to sell evinrude, mercury, or suzuki parts too , do you?
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
6,164
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

HeadHunt,<br /><br />Flatrate manuals are designed to provide times in the format of "benchtime". That means that when a manual says .75 hours to replace a trigger coil, that's the time it takes to change it out when: the engine is backed into a bay, the cover is off, the tools are lined up, the replacement part is pulled and next to the tools. Flat rate manuals also allow for time to handle the receiving paperwork, diagnosing the problem and testing the engine after the repair has been performed. That's A & T or analyze and test. Sometimes the A & T is just .2 hours, somtimes is a full hour. It depends on the repair.
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
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6,164
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Mike,<br /><br />We have never done OMC or BRG. We stopped with Suzuki in 2000 when we sold the dealership. The new guys did not sign back up with Sucuki. And when we stepped back in in 2003 we didn't pursue Suzuki either. Try West Coast Boat Works in St Pete. Ask for Tom, 727-545-2700. As for Mercury, we signed back up with them, but we haven't done much as far as parts inventory with them. I would look at either iboats or Kenyon in Palm Harbor.
 

Laddies

Banned
Joined
Sep 10, 2004
Messages
12,218
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Internet what sounds to me like a fair system of charging for your labor, I belive anyone is entitled to a fair profit. I know that we must make one and use the flat rate manuels, but we seldom see salt water engines, although in the past few years we see more and more of them in our area. (mostly better looking ones hauled up here from the south to be sold to someone who don't know better) Thanks for your upfront answers -- Bob--- If all dealer were as candid as Internet it would be hard to compete with them.
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
6,164
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Oh, as a side note to this entire discussion:<br /><br />Even though I took the position of a dealer that does not service older engines....that has never been our policy. We have always serviced any engine, regardless of age, if it is a brand we are an authorized dealer for. But, I do understand why other dealers don't and someone needed to explain their position.
 

Big Ears

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Messages
30
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

What an interesting thread, especially as I am currently going thru a "BUBBA" experience myself at present. This forum is an excellent place to come and learn from those more experienced thatn myself and for that I thank the lot of you for all your input.<br />I bought a Haines Hunter V133 with a 75 Mariner 1984 model for around 5000 recently and the boat / trailer was in immaculate condition. I met the owner and he seemed to be a genuine guy, motor had good compression and on the test run went fine. had plenty of power ( 45 miles / hour on the speedo, don't know how accurate ).<br />The seller told he had only had the motor for a couple of months and couldn't guaruntee the history but which made me hesitant, but as it had performed well on the test, it all seemed to be fine.<br />He advised me to get the carbies checked and the timing which I did when I returned home . The carbies were missing a few parts and needed an overhaul which I was happy to pay. Also had the comp test done again and asked the mechanic to check over the motor. Without going into every little detail, he checked it over, said I don't know who has been working on this but he's cut a few corners. It should be OK to use but to be safe, run a tank at 25/1 and be nice to the motor. I also booked it in as he had found various things not right, such as a misaligned starter motor and he needed it for around 3 hrs to right the wrongs.<br />This thing would never start for me when hot with out seriously screwing around and cycling between choke on/ choke off, throttle on/off.<br />It aslo coughed a few times when out on water so I was using the boat, but never stopping the motor till I returned to the ramp. One day it lost all power over about 4 knots and the motor was exhibiting behaviour similiar to a dirty fuel filter. Took the filter out, yep, it had some crap in it so put on a new one, and only able to get about 20 mph out of boat. Here's where it gets interesting :<br />I put the boat in.<br />3 days later and I call and no, they haven't got to it yet, but it's 1st cab off the rank in the am. I call around 3pm and find out the mechanic is sick and won't be back till Monday. BTW, there's only 1 employed where 6 months ago there were 2 and the boss still books the workshop like mechanic number 2 was still clocking on. hehehe.<br />Anyway, the mech come in on Sat, changes impellor as per request and checks oput general condition below...no worries. Says" gee I'm having alot of trouble starting this .... and I've changed the carbs and same problem. Also have you noticed this ( mechanic grabs flywheel and can move it from side to side ) and it runs very rough when it fires. I'm thinking it was fine ( well sort of ) when it was last going BEFORE it broke down !) but ask how much to pull it apart ? Another $200.<br />Mechanic advises me that he doesn't want to do anymore on the motor as he can't guarantee I won't be back next week/month with another problem. Too many things smell a lil funny and he'd rather pull it apart so we both know exactly where we stand and the cost to make it a safe, reliable motor for my new pride and joy.He thinks whoever has worked on the motor is a backyard mechanic and has cut too many corners.<br /><br />2 days later he calls and it ain't good. Bearings, crank, 2 scalloped pistons, a lil scarring and lots of worn parts , mixed in with a few new bearings which are not the right ones for the motor and one piston different from the other 3 ( 2 rings versus 3 on the others). Quote is 2200 t0 2500 for a rebuild with a 6month warranty. I'm saying a few rude words and generally feeling like a complete idiot at this point. Not at the mechanic, just at my bad luck.<br />Then you say, " Do I trust this guy or is he ripping me off ? the previous owner still maintains that he thinks I'm being taken for a ride ( he won't admit it but I'm sure he's the culprit ) and get a second opinion. I can't see the point, the mechanic has been nice, he's said from the start that he thinks it's been worked on by a non skilled tradesman and he has gone thru my options with me in regards to the motor. he had no second hand motor at that time to suit what I was after, but if he did I could expect to pat aropund 4500 - 5000 for a second hand 75 - 90, anywhere from 5 - 10 years old with a 3 month warranty. OR I could get a 70 hp Yamaha oil mix for about 7800 fitted ranging to about 10000 for a new 4 stroke such as a Honda .<br />What do you do ???????<br />Too much for the dream solution, a 90hp 4 stoke.<br />I'm not comfortable with spend 5000 on ANOTHER second hand motor with even less warranty and no attached service history.<br /><br />SO as NMPlayer said, the cheapest solution for me was the rebuild, regardless of the market price of the motor. If I get 4 years out of it, it'll be money well spent and I can then look into the dream. <br /><br />Iagree to rebuild and drop in a week later to see how it's going. He shows me all the worn parts, says the powerhead is ok ( norebore needed) and that he was right, the motor had been pulled down and rebuilt, with some incorrect parts and the majority with major wear but not replaced.<br />I'm shocked and ask, " So why did it go OK at test drive time and he replies each time I have used it, the motor has slowly but surely failed as it was incorrectly rebuilt".<br />BUGGER!<br />He tried to have it finished for me this Friday so I had it for the weekend but it now looks like I'll have my toy back on Monday. He has it going , but he still needs to do a lil fine tuning, test it and fit a rev counter.Thanks iboats, this forum has cost me 200 bucks for the tacho as I have learnt how much I need one !hehehehehe<br />In for apenny, in for a pound.<br />As i said, this thread has my eyes popping out of my head as I wonder, " Did i waste my money ? Did i do the right thing? Should I have got a second opinion ? Am i a total idiot and of course, ALL OF THE ABOVE. hehehehehehehehehehehe<br /><br />BTW, sorry for the long winded reply.
 

DHPMARINE

Captain
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
3,688
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

OMC/BMS has been selling 2+4 for years.Then they put in the maintenance valve.We've known about decarb about as long as anybody.<br /><br />DHP
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

hello<br /> with no rebore I dont trust the job. no way those cyl walls are straight. <br /> and if the exhaust divider plate was not removed for inspection and the motor has been in the salt pond it gets iffy.<br /> but that is how I do it. would I rebuild an 84 mariner? not if it was sold and used since new in my area. however we get a lot of used freshwater motors from the inland states and lakes that are clean as a button. those on a case by case basis I will work on. but no mid sixties and 70's oddball stuff :) :)
 

TwoWatt

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 4, 2001
Messages
249
Re: "Authorized Dealers?" - Think Twice

Wish I'd read this post before screwing around at a dealer with my old Mercury. <br />I have a 71 Mercury 500, 50hp engine. It wasn't running when I bought the boat as I bought it to help a friend. After buying the boat & pulling the cover I notice the timing belt is broke. I have engine knowledge, just never marine engine.<br />So I take it too a marine shop, they replace the broken timing belt, then I get "the call". "We have good compression on all 4 cylinders, but no spark, we THINK it may be a worn distributor cap & rotor, but we cannot find parts, we suggest selling the motor for parts" <br />So I go pick the motor up from them $100 charge (which I didn't mind paying, they did work on it)<br />I take it too a backyard joe shop, which basically told me the same thing, "oh that distributor cap & rotor is like $300, I suggest selling this" and I'm out another $100, (but, he did give me a pair of boat seats that I consider worth way more than that)<br />So $200 in & I'm without an engine. I brought it back home, bought a complete ignition system (internal wiring harness,powerpack,distributor,coil,etc) for $50 shipped to my door. I replaced the entire distributor, got everything wired, then find out my starter is bad. Tried a rebuild shop but no luck, internals are smashed from the ol' hammer trick someone attempted. <br />Since spring is coming I panicked & bought an very nice 86 Mercury 60hp -3 cylinder- with controls & tank for $1000. <br />I do plan on trying to restore my old 71 to get her back & running. I know it may not be worth what I'm putting in, but if anything it's a way to learn about outboards. Plus I'd love to see that 50 run again.
 
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