Auto repair issues....what would you do???

[Limited-Time]

Moms Late 90's Caddy with the Northstar V8 engine package. Experiencing over heat issues. Initially trip into service center R&R Rad, thermostat, and water pump. Car overheats again.
This model engine is known to have head gasket issues.
Return the car to service center. The service tech says must be the head gaskets. States he is not equipped to handle that job. He works out a deal on the prior service bill Mom can live with.

Fast forward six months Mom decides to have the head gasket job done. She takes it to another service center, tells them the history. The Service Tech politely listens to the almost 80 year old lady dropping off the car and tells her they will take care of it.
Two days later I get a call. Mom says her car is done, and would like me to accompany her to pick it up. I ask her what repairs were made. She tells me they replaced the water pump and thermostat. I asked her was there any discussion about the head gaskets? She states she informed the service tech she was told the head gaskets were the issue.

I arrive to pick the car up and question the service tech about the known head gasket issues, and about the repairs they carried out. He proceeds to tell me about his multiple certifications and the $12,000 dollars worth of scan tools he use to diagnose the problem. He then proceeded to bad mouth the other service center. Saying they were not citified nor did they have the proper scan tools to diagnose the issue. Then he produced the water pump and the thermostat he replaced. They both looked new to me. I ask the tech if he was going to provide a tow should the car overheat on the freeway. He states that car can be driven anywhere.

Mom asks me to drive the car for a week or so the check it out. So that night I drive the car for about 20 min. letting it idle for about 20 min as I tend to a few errands. Then get in for the 20 min ride home. The car over heats half way home.

I call the service tech first thing this AM and he says to bring the car back in. I question him as to the $397.00 repair bill that did nothing, he stands by his diagnoses. Then continues on there must be other issues. At this point I have ZERO faith in this service center. But still don't want Mom getting stuck for the $397.00 in bogus repairs!

Where to from here???

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Bad head gaskets don't cause over heating. Overheating can cause bad head gaskets.

They can cause coolant loss which could lead to overheating, but it'll be pretty obvious if you are leaking or burning antifreeze.

What all have they checked? Are you sure it isn't something as simple as an airlock in the cooling system?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

I would call call the manager and if there was no satisfaction, I would call a lawyer. In most cases its the rear head gasket

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Bad head gaskets don't cause over heating.

Sure they can.
Head gaskets can leak in a number of different combinations....depends where the gasket fails.
If the exhaust gases leak into the cooling system, the coolant flow can be obstructed/impeded and even driven into the overflow reservoir....and o'heating is inevitable.
BTDT...gave the Tee shirt back....I didn't want it.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

I would call call the manager and if there was no satisfaction, I would call a lawyer. In most cases its the rear head gasket

+1 ^^^

And have the coolant analysed for exhaust gas.
Did it go 6 months with no o/heat, or just not get driven?

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

First thing that comes to mind is I don't do business with service centers who bash other shops, tooting their own horn is another warning sign, a good shop will let its history speak for itself, may even give you a heads up about other shops by simply telling you to be careful.

I agree with oldjeep, but at this point the amount of times this car has gotten hot I have no doubt the head gaskets are done and the heads probably need service as well, the Northstar system has had its share of issues over the years but that doesn't help you at all now.

So, the first shop replaced the water pump and the second shop replaced it again 6 months later? I would take it back to the shop and talk to a manager, explain the situation, I would expect to get the head gaskets replaced minus the $397, it would be worth it to tell the manager that the tech's $12,000 in scan tools appears to have been all for not, a simple leak down test would have answered the question for less then $100 in tools at harbor freight.

Yes you could have an issue with air in the system (pretty common) but it should clear itself pretty quickly if your reservoir and cap are working properly.

I fully expect the Manager to eat the previous trip entirely, if the head gaskets are in fact found to be bad, but as I said the heads likely need surfacing at the least now and that would be on you I believe those heads are aluminum and do not like getting hot repeatedly. This motors head gasket issues are pretty well founded so I have every reason to believe that the head gaskets are in fact the issue, especially with all that your grandmother has been through, but at this point lets see if the Manager makes it right and his tech eats crap and learns from the situation, give them the opportunity to make it right, then if that doesn't get a satisfactory result Scott has the right idea.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Its the aluminum block that's the issue in these engines.Over time and heat cycles the block threads give or pull slightly reducing the torque load on the head gaskets. The standard repair procedure includes re tapping and heli-coiling the head bolt threads in the block. The head gasket issue on these engines tends to show itself at some where over 100K. This car has 125K on it.

Yes it sat for six months. The car was mostly used for long trips over the road.

The tech I dealt with appeared to be the owner. But I will have to verify that. I am scheduled to meet with him in the AM.

There is no issue in paying for required repairs.

I may pick up one of these today to verify the issue. Its on sale at NAPA for $40.00 this week.

So I may have to bite my tongue to get through this. But as Lipp put it: "First thing that comes to mind is I don't do business with service centers who bash other shops, tooting their own horn is another warning sign, a good shop will let its history speak for itself, may even give you a heads up about other shops by simply telling you to be careful."

We'll see how it all plays out.

 

[rbh]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

My experience with a blown head gasket was in the form of when the vehicle got up to temperature and the thermostat opened you could see the exhaust gas bubbling in the the rad when the cap was of, as well the oil dip stick would pop out of the tube due to the pressure.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

This is moving to non-boating technical

Read the sticky notes on this forum about Northstar cooling Northstar Performance and Technical Discussion

 

[QC]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Hey LT,

I think if you get push back (expected) that I would also ask to detail how he diagnosed the bad water pump and thermostat. Test the old thermostat if he said it failed and maybe even reinstall the old water pump if he gets carpy about it. I have no idea how his scan tools will tell him a water pump isn't flowing, or even if a thermostat has failed. I also don't know how his scan tools would tell him that the head gaskets were good, or bad, so this portion of this discussion is bugging me.

I am typically supportive of a shop until there is evidence. The 2nd pump and thermo replacement have me on the wrong side of this one from the gitgo.

Good luck!

 

[britisher]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

On a non-technical note, How did you pay for the repair? If you paid using Visa or Mastercard, then you place the transaction into dispute. The Merchant Services folks investigate the complaint to determine if the vendor has acted wrongly. IMHO, I think the latter vendor did. If you paid cash or check, then there is little you can, certainly with cash.
I am no professional mechanic, but I know from the guys who does our repairs that you can determine a bad cylinder head gasket by non-intrusive tests (ie you don;t have to rear down the engine to physically see the gasket).
Overheating is initial investigation by checking hoses for tightness, no internal collapse, water pump pumping correctly, thermostat opening shutting correctly and radiator functioning as designed as well checking radiator cap for correctness. That's all basic novice stuff, even the wife could do that! After 20+ years, a system flush would ensure all the crud is out too. A good shop should be able to check all these things and more, without resorting to we'll change this, then that, meanwhile building up your bill. As you described it was your 80 year old, grey haired old lady that took the car in. The guys' eyes must have seen only dollar signs!!!!

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Sure they can.
Head gaskets can leak in a number of different combinations....depends where the gasket fails.
If the exhaust gases leak into the cooling system, the coolant flow can be obstructed/impeded and even driven into the overflow reservoir....and o'heating is inevitable.
BTDT...gave the Tee shirt back....I didn't want it.

I buy the exhaust in the coolant, but the reverse of that issue is that when the block cools down it tends to suck coolant back into where ever the exhaust was coming from - thus my comment about you will either be leaking it or burning it. The flow from exhaust to coolant passages isn;t one way.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

I buy the exhaust in the coolant, but the reverse of that issue is that when the block cools down it tends to suck coolant back into where ever the exhaust was coming from - thus my comment about you will either be leaking it or burning it. The flow from exhaust to coolant passages isn;t one way.

Unless the resistance exceeds the rad cap pressure rating....then the coolant just gets returned from the overflow reservoir to the rad until the pressure difference is 0 .
Nothing into the cylinders.
Subarus are notorious for this.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

If I understand this correctly, the second service center guaranteed they had it diagnosed and fixed and stood by their work, I would just leave them on the hook until it is fixed. What does the paperwork (work order, invoice, etc.) say about the same problem recurring in what length of time?

I remember a Caddy ad from a few yeasr back that said/showed the Northstar could run without coolant, anyone rmember that? Maybe this is a different or earlier model? j/k

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Maclin - The Northstar is supposed to run without coolant. although I am not sure how well that really worked in the real world.

Limited-Time - Regarding the head bolts, if the shop offers to helicoil the head bolt holes. Say thanks, but no thanks and WALK AWAY. The only proven method is to timesert the block. Its a bit more costly, however it will not strip out like the helicoils.

 

[littlebookworm]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Some questions to ask: Are the coolant fans coming on at the proper temperature? Was the coolant tested for exhaust gases being dissolved into it? (That would prove or disprove an exhaust leak, via headgasket leak, into the cooling system.) What scan did he use to show a bad waterpump or thermostat? (No $12k equipment that I know of can do that.) Did he check Aldata or any other service data information source before ripping into the engine, or did he simply change the easiest parts? I was a mechanic years ago and actually helped run Dad's shop. The work of both thse 'mechanics' is what gives mechanics a bad name. This particular engine has some problems associated with it, but they can be corrected if diagnosed and handled properly. By the way, the block may need nothing more than the threads chased and anti-seize paste used on the bolts. Drilling and replacing threads is not standard procedure; it's only done when threads are known to be bad. Re-doing all the threads on a block is rather extreme. If the heads are pulled to replace the gaskets, have the heads trued and the block checked for flatness. Use only OEM head gaskets; avoid cheap, after-market gaskets. Note: some after-market gaskets are excellent; demand the best, not the cheapest. Good luck and let us know the outcome, please. Hy

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Well dropped the car this AM, after refilling the coolant. :facepalm: Met with the tech from yesterday. Whole different demeanor today. After a few yes Sirs and well make it rights I gave him my cell number for contact purposes. We'll see how it goes from here.

As for the Heli-coil comment, that was my term for the thread inserts.

My real concern is the engine has been over heated 3 times now. The first when the initial overheat occurred. The 2 subsequent overheats after the failed repairs were made.
If the repair cost escalate to far they will soon be more than the car is worth.

Thanks for all the responces. I'll post as soon as I hear from the service tech.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Got a call from the service tech. said he's not sure whats going on. He said he believes the thermostat was bad.

He also said he and the other techs are scratching their heads as all the tests indicate no issue. Cooling system pressure test held 15 PSI, Combustion Block Leak Test, no indication of co2 in the cooling system, cylinder leak down test, again no indication of problem.

He then asked if one of the techs could drive the car for the eve. I told him that's fine, then I reviewed the circumstances the resulted in the last 2 overheats. He said their road test generally last between 15 and 20 min. I said the issue never presents itself in short trips. Both times the car had run for almost an hour before the overheat.

So we'll see what happens today.

 

[Volphin]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Have them remove and clean the "hollow bolt" fitting where the purge line connects to the crossover assembly.

If you trace the plumbing backward from the small hose at the top of your coolant reservoir you will come to a piece of rubber hose clamped to a hollow bolt located directly aft of the upper hose fitting on the coolant crossover. The hollow bolt also secures one end of the engine lift fitting.

Be aware that this plumbing can be difficult to follow because the throttle body is included in the circuit on this engine.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Auto repair issues....what would you do???

Have them remove and clean the "hollow bolt" fitting where the purge line connects to the crossover assembly.

If you trace the plumbing backward from the small hose at the top of your coolant reservoir you will come to a piece of rubber hose clamped to a hollow bolt located directly aft of the upper hose fitting on the coolant crossover. The hollow bolt also secures one end of the engine lift fitting.

Be aware that this plumbing can be difficult to follow because the throttle body is included in the circuit on this engine.

Hey Volphin, thanks for the input. Ill pass it along to the tech when i speak with him.